Disclaimer: About This Blog

THIS BLOG IS: my personal journey of how I am rethinking some of my spiritual beliefs.
THIS BLOG IS NOT: intended to point fingers at people who I think are wrong.
I do not believe the final judgement will be based on how many correct answers we get on a theology exam. I believe many people throughout history have had genuine relationships with God, despite holding questionable beliefs and practices. I make no claim to having it all figured out or being your judge. If we end up disagreeing over these topics I pray we can find a way to demonstrate grace.
Showing posts with label My 95 Thesis. Show all posts
Showing posts with label My 95 Thesis. Show all posts

Saturday, July 23, 2011

My 95 Thesis - Point 13 - Temple Worship


Here's my 13th Point in My 95 Theses. Another topic I'd love to see the church dialog around is our view of special places of worship, special people who lead the worship, and special actions done as worship.

When you look at the Old Testament model it is easy to identify the temple, priests and sacrifices of worship. There are specific holy places, holy people, and holy actions.

When you look at the modern church practices and beliefs it is a bit confusing.

Some may see similarities between the Old Testament Temple and our current Church buildings.

Some may see similarities between the Old Testament Priests and our current clergy who go by a variety of titles (Bishops, Priests, Pastors, Ministers...).

Some may see similarities between the Old Testament sacrifices made for worship and our current practices of worship music (or for others the Eucharist or sacraments).

But lets be clear.

According to the New Testament...

What/who is the temple?
“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. " (Acts 17:24 NIV)

"Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?" (1 Corinthians 3:16 NIV)

"you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1 Pet 2:5 NIV)

"Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;" (1 Corinthians 6:19 NIV)
"What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” (2 Corinthians 6:16 NIV)
"Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit. " (Ephesians 2:19-22 NIV)

Who are the priests?
"you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
...
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."
(1 Pet 2:5,9 NIV)
What are the sacrifices of worship?
"Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will." (Rom 12:1-2 NIV)

"Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that openly profess his name. And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased. (Hebrews 13:15-16 NIV)
These ideas are not new. The protestant reformation included the belief in the priesthood of all believers. Yet I know many people practice a form of Christianity that elevates special buildings, special people, and special worship activities.

I fear there are many who get confused.

Related Posts:

Monday, December 6, 2010

My 95 Thesis - Point 12 - Leadership

Here's my 12th Point in My 95 Thesis.

Another topic I think the church should dialog on is leadership. Is there a place for hierarchy in the church? Are some brothers a type of leader who have some special authority over the others? And what about titles, positions, and offices? Are we really doing this by the book?

Of course, in any gathering there will be some who lead others. The guy who starts the wave at a football game is a leader. Not because he has any special authority, but because others see what he is doing and want to follow.

What about elders? I understand there were elders in the NT church... just like there were elders in the OT ... society. However the elders in the OT society were not viewed as spiritual shepherds or overseers. I'm not sure how this translated into the NT church. I suspect it was common to look to the older wise men in the community for advice and guidance. However I don't see Scriptural evidence that these elders made decisions on behalf of the rest of the body.

What about pastors and overseers? I find it interesting that nobody in the NT called themselves these titles. It may be that shepherding and watching for and caring for others is more of description of what we are all called to. It may have had little to do with a title for an office or position. Yes, some will be more gifted than others... so they should be leading by example to encouraging the rest of the body to shepherd and oversee as well. In my opinion the only one who qualifies to use the title Chief Shepherd (or lead pastor) is Jesus.

I suspect if anyone was going around calling themselves 'Pastor' in those days, Jesus would have added that to this list in Matt 23:8-12 (NIV):
“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.
Church history is full of people using titles like preacher, pastor (shepherd), bishop (overseer), clergy, deacon (waiter or servant), priest, minister, reverend, archbishop, cardinal.

But I can't find any evidence those in the early church used any such titles. They refereed to themselves servants, brothers, apostles (sent ones), prisoner.... I think they understood their role and position in this new kingdom Jesus was establishing.

HOWEVER... just because I am questioning the use of the titles Pastor and elder, I do not want anyone to think I am against those who use these titles. I pray I can show grace and love towards my brothers who use these titles. My dad is a retired 'pastor'... and of course I still love him dearly. And I have other good friends who use these titles. I recognize that they are passionately seeking to love and follow the same Jesus I am seeking. In my opinion, it may not be so much about what we call ourselves that matters... but what we do. And I know most people who have used the titles pastor and elder have been doing shepherding, caring, feeding, etc. And we should all strive to follow that example.

Related Posts:

Sunday, October 31, 2010

Reformation Sunday - My 95 Thesis


Today is Reformation day. On October 31, 1517 Martin Luther posted his 95 Thesis. Issues he wanted the church to dialog about. I'm recognizing the guts it must have taken for Martin Luther and others to go against the flow of the established church.

Personally I'm not sure the work of the Reformation has finished. I'm doing my part by posting my 95 thesis, stuff I'd love to see the church dialog around:

http://jonjourney.blogspot.com/2010/01/my-95-thesis.html

Thursday, September 16, 2010

My 95 Thesis - Point 11 - Sermon Centered

Here's my 11th Point in My 95 Theses.

Why has our gatherings become centered around a sermon? Why does the body of Christ, the royal priesthood, sit passively listening to the same person speak week after week?

There is nothing wrong with a good sermon. But are we missing out on something better?

The way I read the New Testament, most of the preaching was done outside the gathering - directed at non-believers. Yes, when the believers gathered they did teach each other, but:
  • I don't think a 30 minute monologue was the main part of the gathering
  • I don't think it was done primarily by one person
  • I don't believe the listeners were passive, I believe they would have responded with discernment
  • There are many ways to teach. Some of the best teaching is done in one on one conversations and/or modeling a life.
1 Corinthians 14:26 (New International Version)
What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.
Hebrews 10:24-25 (New International Version)
And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
1 Timothy 4:13 (New International Version)
Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching.
Ephesians 5:18-21 (New International Version)
Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:4-11 (New International Version)
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
Romans 12:6-8 (New International Version)
We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

Are we doing church by the book on this one? And if not, should we?

Have we made the sermon the main part of our gathering? Why? Does it need to be? What are the pros & cons? Is the body missing out on something with this focus on the sermon?

I think these are valid questions to discuss.

Related Posts:

Friday, July 30, 2010

My 95 Thesis - Point 10 - Denominations

Here's my 10th Point in My 95 Theses.

Yes, it is related to unity, which is my 1st point... but I want to focus on a specific concern.

Where do we get the idea that having different denominations is acceptable? Is Christ's church divided? Are we dividing Christ's body? Or are we assuming that our denomination is the only real church?

I used to agree that having denominations was a necessary evil. How else could all these different 'church' institutions function considering they all have different traditions and unique beliefs.

However now I am trying to view church differently. Not as a location, event, institution or corporation but as the body of all those in Christ's kingdom. It is not so much where a person spends their Sunday morning, or which group they belong to. If Christ is Lord of someone's life they are part of Christ's one true church.

Is there really a need for denominations? Is there any Scriptural support?

Related Posts:

Monday, June 7, 2010

My 95 Thesis - Point 9 - Money

Here's my 9th Point in My 95 Theses.

Money for poor is emphasized in New Testament.

Money for buildings, staff, and programming... not so much.

I don't want to come across sounding like I'm judging those on the receiving end of regular 'church' giving. But I'd encourage you to consider these questions.

Are we spending our money the way the early church did?

If not is it OK?

Are we giving enough to the poor?

If not is it OK?

Does Christ's Church need a budget?

If we view 'church' as a building, organization, corporation, or even as a event we may think a budget is necessary. However, if we view church as Christ's body... those who live by His Holy Spirit... every day of the week... the 'church budget' may not make as much sense.

I know we live in a different day and age than the early church. I'm still not sure what it should all look like today, but these are some questions I'm struggling through.

Related Posts:

Wednesday, April 7, 2010

My 95 Thesis - Point 6 - Membership

Here's my 6th Point in My 95 Theses.

The way we do church membership is not found in Scripture. The body of Christ is a universal body. The members of the body are all Christ followers.

Does encouraging people to become members of a local assembly encourage or discourage them from viewing themselves as part of Christ's larger body?

Does encouraging people to become members of a local assembly that does not get along well with other assemblies force Christ followers to pick sides on battle lines created by others in past generations?

I suspect the way membership is done in local assemblies often does more harm than good to the unity of Christ's body.

Yes it may encourage unity in a local sense... but what are they unified towards??? Unified around a unique set of beliefs that puts them in opposition to other Christ followers?

What are the benefits to local 'church' membership?


Related Posts:


Saturday, March 20, 2010

If Martin Luther lived today

I just re-read Martin Luther's 95 Thesis. When I started My 95 Thesis series of posts I was thinking Luther was taking issue with 95 separate issues with the Roman Catholic church of his day. But it looks like this trigger point of the protestant reformation was basically one issue described in 95 points or sentences. Indulgences was the main issue Martin Luther wanted to start a dialog around.

So my logic around naming My 95 Thesis series is a bit flawed. I have more than one issue I'd like to see some dialog around today.

I also wonder... If Martin Luther lived today, would he still write something similar to his 95 Thesis?

I think it's safe to say the main points in Luther's 95 Thesis are no longer concerns in the Roman Catholic church. I think the counter reformation of the 1500's - 1600's addressed most of those concerns.

A Catholic friend of mine had never even heard of indulgences until an 'evangelical' friend of her's told her how wrong it was for her to believe such things. She had to go look it up to figure out what all the fuss was about.

The war on this battle line is over, but many of the troops haven't been informed.

Is there still a need to protest the Roman Catholic church? There are other differences that have emerged, but if they are big issues for you, wouldn't dialog be more constructive? ... and that is what Martin Luther originally desired.

Are there issues with the traditions of the protestants that should also discussed?

If someone was to protest the protesters... what would they be called?

Monday, February 15, 2010

95 Thesis - Point 5 - Calvinism


Here's my 5th Point in My 95 Theses.

This point is not directed at all protestant evangelicals... but I am concerned at the level of influence Calvinism has. I’m concerned many are being influenced by this school of thought without understanding it.

So what are the 5 points of Calvinism (TULIP):
  • T - Total Depravity
  • U - Unconditional Election
  • L - Limited Atonement
  • I - Irresistible Grace
  • P - Perseverance of the saints
Total Depravity
When man fell, sin permeated his entire being. This fall was so complete that man had no desire for God and righteousness. Man is so totally enslaved by sin that he can only choose evil; he cannot choose good. He is incapable of choosing God and His salvation. Man is totally blind and deaf to the gospel. Apart from a supernatural intervention from God, the gospel message absolutely has no effect on a person. Total depravity is also called total inability.
Unconditional Election
God has chosen some people to go to Heaven and other people to go to Hell. This choice is not based on any qualities of the person being elected. This selection is not based on God’s foreknowledge of who will "get saved" in the future.
Limited Atonement
God limited His atonement to only those who are elect. When Jesus died on the cross, He did not die for the sins of the whole world; He only died for those He wanted to go to Heaven.
Irresistible Grace
The grace that God extends to the elect cannot be refused. God puts into the hearts of the elect an irresistible desire to turn to Him and accept His salvation. This desire is so overpowering that no one can refuse it.
Perseverance of the Saints
Since God has determined who will get saved and they cannot resist His call, they are unconditionally and eternally secure in that election. Therefore, those who have been chosen to be saved will always stay saved. They cannot resist or lose their salvation.
(Above points taken from http://www.biblehelp.org/tulip.htm )

Some Concerns I have with this:

1)I don't think it fits with God's character of love for all his creation. If we say we are saved by grace alone, that it is all God's doing and not our own...
Do we also say the wicked are doomed by God's lack of grace alone, that it is all God's doing and not their own???

2) Some then conclude that God hates sinners. If God hates sinners can we hate them too?

3) Where is free will? Why would God create humanity yet not allow us to exercise free will?

4) If God does everything, we don't need to seek and pursue Him?

5) How I've witnessed "once saved always saved" being applied goes like this: We tell children when they say a prayer that they are saved and nothing can change that fact... but then if/when that child grows up and falls away from the faith we say "well, I guess they were not really saved to begin with... maybe they didn't mean it".

6) Yes there are some verses that support these positions. But there are other verses that seem to be ignored. If God wanted us to believe this system of beliefs I think it would have been clearly laid out... however it took 1500 years before John Calvin and his followers came up with this.

Hebrews 11:6 (NIV) - Total Depravity?
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
2 Peter 3:9 (NIV) - Unconditional Election?
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
1 John 2:2 (NIV) - Limited atonement?
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Matthew 23:37 (NIV) - Irresistible Grace?
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."
Acts 17:30 (NIV) - Unconditional Election?
"In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent."
Matthew 6:33 (NIV) - free will? Ability to seek God? Yes!
"But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well."

Related Posts:

Saturday, January 23, 2010

My 95 Thesis - Point 4 - Hell


Here's my 4th Point in My 95 Theses.

Does Scripture say Hell is eternal punishment?

Or does it teach that the wages of sin is death, perishing, being destroyed, a second death, or not getting to live for eternity.

If Scripture was clear, I don't think I'd be asking this question. But there are enough verses to give me doubt. I'd rather admit I don't know for sure one way or the other, than give someone a potentially false image of God.

Here are some questions to consider:
Either way eternal life with Jesus is still the obvious choice. I'm just questioning if the doctrine of Hell, that most denominations support, is clearly true to scripture. To be destroyed or perish may simply mean that those who do not choose life with Christ do not get to live eternally.

I think the traditional teaching on hell deserves a second look, and is worth discussing.


Other Related Posts:

Tuesday, January 12, 2010

My 95 Thesis - Point 3 - God is Love

Here's my 3rd Point in My 95 Theses.

I fear many get confused about God's love.

"He loves me... He loves me not...", we go back and forth.

There is the idea out there that God wants to zap us, but Jesus steps in the way and says: "No, God, you can't touch that one, I've got him covered".

I don't think so anymore. Other religions can have the angry God that needs to be appeased.

God is love.

Related topics:

Saturday, January 9, 2010

My 95 Thesis - Point 2 - Gospel

Here's my 2nd Point in My 95 Theses.

'Evangelicals' believe we are following Christ's command to go into all the world and preach the gospel.

But I suspect the definition used for 'gospel' is different than the gospel Jesus and his disciples preached.

The words 'gospel' or 'good news' show up 23 times in 'the gospels' (mostly pre-cross).

Was the gospel message that Jesus shared something like this?

God - God is Holy - completely without sin and never does anything wrong - He's always right and can't have sin in His presence. Isaiah 59:1-2
Ourselves - we are all sinners - we've all broken God's standard of holiness and perfection - we're all offenders of God. Romans 3:23
Sentence - what we deserve, what we've earned for our offences towards a Holy god - our punishment - is eternal separation from Him forever! Romans 6:23a
Powerless - there's nothing in and of ourselves that we can do to make things right before a Holy God! Isaiah 64:6
Extreme love - God demonstrates extreme love towards us. He sends His perfect and sinless Son, Jesus to take our punishment. Romans 5:8, 2 Cor 5:21
Life - The offer is ours to receive or reject. God in His Love provides a way for relationship with Him. God in His Mercy offers pardon for our wrongdoing. God in His Grace offers us forgiveness of sin and eternal joy and life through His Son Jesus - starting right now! If we choose to receive what God offers us in love, then we need to turn from our sin and by faith, embrace all that Jesus has done. Romans 6:23b, Ephesioans 2:8-9
Or something like this:
Jesus is Lord!
God's kingdom is here!
The reign of God is here!
Change your life, believe this message!

Did you know God's power is available to you? You don't have to do everything in your own strength and wisdom. If you allow God to rule in your life (the work of the Holy Spirit), instead of your selfish ambitions, He will restore your life to what it was intended to be.
I've seen many different definitions of the gospel. Many of them are full of truths. But I suspect they are an attempt to summarize all the key doctrines of their unique brand of Christianity and tag some supporting Bible verses that go along with their teachings... and using the label gospel to create or maintain divisions in Christ's church.

I think it is worth asking:
  • What was the gospel message Jesus and his disciples preached?
  • And would this same gospel message work today?
Related Posts:

Thursday, January 7, 2010

My 95 Thesis - Point 1 - Unity


Here's my 1st Point in My 95 Theses.

These questions sum up my concern:
  • How is Christianity doing concerning Christ's prayer for our unity?
  • What role has 'Evangelical Protestants' played in this?
  • What is our track record on unity since the 1500's? Have we stayed united within protestantism or have we divided further over and over again?
  • Are we reaching out to build bridges, or are we drawing battle lines and digging trenches?
  • Who's church? Our church or Christ's church?
  • Who decides who is in and who is out? Our protestant evangelical doctrines and denominations or Christ?
"But the other guys have bad teachings and some follow empty religious rituals"... says the one with a plank in his eye.

Nuff said. (I'd better go check what plank is in my eye now.)

Please join Christ in his prayer for unity between all those who follow him. When we recognize that others are loving and following the same Jesus that we do, it doesn't take much to recognize unity.

Related Posts:

My 95 Thesis

"Out of love for the truth and the desire to bring it to light, the following propositions will be discussed at Wittenberg, under the presidency of the Reverend Father Martin Luther, Master of Arts and of Sacred Theology, and Lecturer in Ordinary on the same at that place. Wherefore he requests that those who are unable to be present and debate orally with us, may do so by letter.

In the Name our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen."
http://www.conradaskland.com/blog/2008/11/martin-luthers-95-theses-in-latin-and-english/

I understand Martin Luther's desire with his 95 thesis was not to start a new denomination or branch of Christianity, but to start dialog. My desire is the same. I doubt I'll get to 95, but I do have some points of concern with protestant evangelicalism that I believe are worth dialoging on.

I don't want to create new divisions. I want to start by affirming the common belief of all Christ followers that Jesus is Lord. He is Lord of my life. And this dialog is intended for those who confess that he is Lord of their lives. If we share a common Lord, and He is ruling in our hearts and lives and not our own selfish ambitions, let's put aside our agenda's and seek God as we approach these topics. If we are one with Christ, even in the midst of disagreement I believe He will direct us to maintain unity.

I'm also not assuming I have it all figured out. I may be wrong on a number of these issues. But I ask you to consider my concerns and seek God for the truth.

Point #1: Unity

Are we joining Christ's prayer for unity - or working against it?
Click here for more on this topic, and share your thoughts.

Point #2: Gospel

What was the gospel message Jesus and his disciples preached?
Would this same gospel message work today?
Click here for more on this topic, and share your thoughts.

Point #3: God is Love

Does our God love us or hate us? Seems like a simple question, yet God is often portrayed as an angry God who hates the world...
Click here for more on this topic, and share your thoughts.

Point #4: Hell

Does Scripture say Hell is eternal punishment? Or does it teach that the wages of sin is death, perishing, being destroyed, a second death, or not getting to live for eternity?
Click here for more on this topic, and share your thoughts.

Point #5: Calvinism

I'm concerned at the level of influence Calvinism has within 'protestant evangelicalism'.
Click here for more on this topic, and share your thoughts.

Point #6: Membership

I'm concerned that the way we do church membership does more harm to the unity of Christ's body than good.
Click here for more on this topic, and share your thoughts.

Point #7: Magic 8 Ball

Does the Bible give clear answers on all issues? I`m concerned with the tendency in Christian circles to try to find answers to every question in the pages of Scripture.
Click here for more on this topic, and share your thoughts.

Point #8: Sola Scriptura

Does Scripture teach Sola Scriptura? Is Sola Scriptura an essential to the faith? I'm concerned we may place a greater emphasis on a book than on the two things Jesus did leave with us to guide us.
Click here for more on this topic, and share your thoughts.


Point #9: Money

Money for poor is emphasized in New Testament. Money for buildings, staff, and programming... not so much. Does Christ's Church need a budget?
Click here for more on this topic, and share your thoughts.

Point #10: Denominations

Where do we get the idea that having different denominations is acceptable? Is Christ's church divided? Are we dividing Christ's body? Or are we assuming that our denomination is the only real church?
Click here for more on this topic, and share your thoughts.

Point #11: Sermon Centered

Why has our gatherings become centered around a sermon? Why does the body of Christ, the royal priesthood, sit passively listening to the same person speak week after week? There is nothing wrong with a good sermon. But are we missing out on something better?
Click here for more on this topic, and share your thoughts.

Point #12: Leadership

Of course, in any gathering there will be some who lead others. But does the church need leaders who make decisions for the body? Or should the leaders simply be the ones who are living as examples that others should follow? And what about the use of titles common to church leaders?
Click here for more on this topic, and share your thoughts.

Point #13: Temple Worship

When you look at the Old Testament model it is easy to identify the temple, priests and sacrifices of worship. There are specific holy places, holy people, and holy actions. When you look at the modern church practices and beliefs it is a bit confusing.
Click here for more on this topic, and share your thoughts.


OK, I likely won't get close to 95... and Luther's 95 wasn't really 95 separate issues either... but I may post a few more points here in the future to organize my concerns...