tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.comments2023-05-20T06:30:03.560-05:00Jon's JourneyJonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01266729238990589293noreply@blogger.comBlogger1090125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-16399110130985377562021-10-11T17:20:35.222-05:002021-10-11T17:20:35.222-05:00Thanks Brian for leaving a comment. I have definat...Thanks Brian for leaving a comment. I have definately chilled out a bit in recent years. More at peace with God and others. In terms of blogging it also translates into less intensity and frequency in my writing.Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01266729238990589293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-35152672964520981202021-10-11T17:15:21.656-05:002021-10-11T17:15:21.656-05:00Thanks Brian for leaving a comment, yes this world...Thanks Brian for leaving a comment, yes this world could use more of a spriti of unity. Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01266729238990589293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-5581388017357885292021-10-10T21:31:22.883-05:002021-10-10T21:31:22.883-05:00So glad you are back. One of the things you wrote ...So glad you are back. One of the things you wrote about that really stuck out was the Unity above all. Imagine what we could accomplish in this world with the spirit of unityBrianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12677300560140322921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-15484425137802478952021-10-10T21:20:25.311-05:002021-10-10T21:20:25.311-05:00I have thought of you over the last several years ...I have thought of you over the last several years and wondered how you were doing. Good to see you back and glad to hear your in a good place. I look forward to reading some new material Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12677300560140322921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-64215485164498076772021-06-26T13:30:02.502-05:002021-06-26T13:30:02.502-05:00I believe in your exhibition, Russas, Ceará, Brazi...I believe in your exhibition, Russas, Ceará, Brazil. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468103337831928533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-75748361288448880322020-09-08T09:37:30.943-05:002020-09-08T09:37:30.943-05:00Interesting that on this topic of Baptism by water...Interesting that on this topic of Baptism by water, the actors are John the Baptist, Jon of this blogspot and me another John from Mysore in India 😀😀! johnten10.comYohan John Kunnenkeril/JOHN 10 TENhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10592993591415029644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-75048975591639657002020-09-08T09:27:30.743-05:002020-09-08T09:27:30.743-05:00True New Covenant Baptism is immersion into person...True New Covenant Baptism is immersion into person of Triune God, immersion in The Word, Him and Him Crucified. Water immersion in New Testament times is an invariably counterproductive "short cut" taken by the one who is "baptising" by water and the one being so 'baptised'.<br />True Baptism brings change and is a continuing process, being immersed more and more in Him.<br />johnten10.comYohan John Kunnenkeril/JOHN 10 TENhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10592993591415029644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-53752459376164632562019-12-17T05:09:58.063-06:002019-12-17T05:09:58.063-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.afjghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02119097486487054192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-71114730763902194992018-11-20T06:32:53.375-06:002018-11-20T06:32:53.375-06:00I piggy-backed your post to Lew's and find the...I piggy-backed your post to Lew's and find the honesty refreshing if not a much needed shot in the arm. Your thoughts on eternal punishment I too have debated with myself, this started in earnest after my mom died a year ago. Don't get me wrong, my mom was anything BUT a believer in Christ, that said, I've sometimes wondered if the dead just stay "dead" since LIFE is only in Christ. <br /><br />Like you and Lew, I could only make a list scads of things I used to believe only when I had the courage to face the REASONS I believed what I had believed at the time, not an easy task if one were honest with themselves. At this point in my life (age 57) one thing I know for sure is that I believe Christ died to pay for my crimes against God and that in and of myself, I'm only worthy of condemnation....the rest after this is on the learning curve.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00042201438712434887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-78109753791444474172018-04-24T12:10:33.734-05:002018-04-24T12:10:33.734-05:00Thank you for sharing a very interesting insight. ...Thank you for sharing a very interesting insight. A few weeks ago, I was read Proverbs 3:27 and found that different versions translate it differently. In some versions it reads as don't hold back good from those who "need it," in others it has "deserve it." Your Didache reference reminded me of this and gave me a new insight. Here's what I'm thinking: In our giving, we need to consider who most deserves our help. For example, if two people are in equal need, but one is in that situation because of poor judgement while the other is there due to circumstances over which he or she had no control, it is the latter not the former who "deserves" our alms. Money (and possibly even assistance) given to a fool is probably money wasted. That's not to say we should say to the proverbial fool, "You've made your bed and now you must sleep in it," but in choosing where to help, we should choose the individual in whose life that help will produce the best fruit.Andrew Sturthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15768332249963982020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-22123896173118153932017-12-18T04:30:20.865-06:002017-12-18T04:30:20.865-06:00Hi, I know this is an old post, but I came across ...Hi, I know this is an old post, but I came across it as top result on Google while searching things to do with the Didache. You may enjoy my new book, which is a compilation of early texts, broken down into daily, bite-sized chunks for reading. The Didache is the first chapter :)<br /><br />Take a look if you're interested: <a href="https://fortydays.co.uk/amazonUS" rel="nofollow">https://fortydays.co.uk/amazonUS</a> MrLukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09491060235694678191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-61661384213670405112017-11-15T00:33:50.164-06:002017-11-15T00:33:50.164-06:00---continued---
No payment of debt here!
Hebrews...---continued---<br /><br />No payment of debt here!<br /><br />Hebrews 2:17 (ESV)<br /><br />17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.<br /><br />1 John 2:1–2 (ESV)<br /><br />Christ Our Advocate<br />2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.<br /><br />Nothing "limited" about that!<br /><br />1 John 4:10 (ESV)<br />10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.<br /><br />God the Father is "satisfied" with the blood of His Son. It is a propitiation not a payment. This makes all the pieces fall into place for the scriptures that speak to Christians being judged in the flesh so that they might live in the spirit, in the day of the Lord. This sacrifice is "not" an excuse to continue sinning. In fact, if we do, we will be disciplined (judged) so that we will not perish along with the world.<br /><br />1 Corinthians 11:30–32 (ESV)<br />30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. 31 But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.<br /><br />Hebrews 10:12–14 (ESV)<br />12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.<br /><br />Sounds good doesn't it! Well the following verse comes shortly after that:<br /><br />Hebrews 10:26–30 (ESV)<br />26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”<br /><br />Many, try to explain these verses away to justify the "our debt is paid" theology. They have to because it isn't true. Our debt has been cancelled and our sins have been forgiven. "IF" we sin all we need do is to confess our sins, we are told in 1 John 1:19 that God is then "faithful and just" to "forgive." That's because a sacrifice has been made for our sins, not the payment of a debt!<br /><br />It has been my experience that very, very, few Christians will accept these facts because they are fully invested in the debt payment ideology. I purposefully call it any ideology because it is what our Christian culture tells us is the truth, not the scriptures.<br /><br />Best Regards!<br />CraigAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16073033803775748360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-79954556101215778062017-11-15T00:33:13.457-06:002017-11-15T00:33:13.457-06:00Joh, a good question and a great observation. The...Joh, a good question and a great observation. The concept of the penal substitution started with Anselm of Canterbury in the 11th century and was fleshed out by the lawyer, John Calvin.<br /><br />The fact is, you can't find any of those popular phrases "He paid our debt." or "the debt of sin was paid," etc. Because they are not in the scripture.<br /><br />Colossians 2:13–14 (ESV)<br />13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.<br /><br />Our sins are always spoken of as having been forgiven and our debt as having either forgiven or canceled. Even Jesus' parables reflected this fact.<br /><br />Matthew 18:23–35 (ESV)<br />23 “Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. 24 When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ 27 And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. 28 But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay what you owe.’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ 30 He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt. 31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place. 32 Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ 34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”<br /><br />Luke 7:40–43 (ESV)<br />40 And Jesus answering said to him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.” And he answered, “Say it, Teacher.” <br />41 “A certain moneylender had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 When they could not pay, he canceled the debt of both. Now which of them will love him more?” 43 Simon answered, “The one, I suppose, for whom he canceled the larger debt.” And he said to him, “You have judged rightly.”<br /><br />The concept of debt payment has been a disaster. It required Calvin to invent the concept of a Limited Atonement (The Greek word for Atonement cannot be found in the New Testament because it is not there: propitiation is (not expation)). The reasoning is that if Jesus paid our debt: past, present, and future, then how could God send people who hell if the sacrifice was for everyone...so it must only apply to the "chosen." Who cares that John the Baptist said He was the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world and that it is not God desire that anyone perish. Or that hell was created for the devil and his angels (no mention of man).<br /><br />In the non-Calvinist end of things, it is a disaster because Christians get the false idea that their sins are all already paid for so it doesn't matter what they do! Let's just ignore all the exhortations to the contrary. All these things were introduced by men who go beyond what is written into their own intellectual creations.<br /><br />Romans 3:25 (ESV)<br />25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16073033803775748360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-34492880760108864712017-04-25T00:03:42.550-05:002017-04-25T00:03:42.550-05:00Galatians says that Jesus removed the curse of the...Galatians says that Jesus removed the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. The curse of the law was a quite extensive list of punishments that would come on Israel if they failed to keep the law. I don't think we can remove the penal aspect of the cross. Isaiah says He was numbered with the transgressors and the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him.<br /><br />Also, many will claim that PSA is new to the church. I have read PSA supporting comments fron several of the early church fathers. Just because the theology wasn't fleshed out yet doesn't mean it didn't exist. Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02566269682771263386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-84710663705411378152016-10-18T08:56:08.830-05:002016-10-18T08:56:08.830-05:00I went to the link Brother Johnny posted above(jes...I went to the link Brother Johnny posted above(jesusmanifesto)and while some of the points of the book seem right on, be careful because that book is co-authored by Leonard Sweet who is pushing the Emergent Church. If you google Leonard Sweet New Age or Leonard Sweet Emergent Church or Leonard Sweet Quantum Spirituality you will see many things to read about him that will open your eyes. Lighthouse Trails also covers him: http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/leonardsweet.htm <br /><br />In this late hour of the church, unity has been ruined on purpose by those who oppose Christianity and have on purpose brought in heretical teachings so while I agree we should be supportive of Christian brothers and sisters and love one another, we have to make sure we are not embracing those who are agents planted in the church to divide the sheep away from Scripture, and from what true Christianity is, like how the Emergent Church or New Age is doing. <br /><br />In closing, I like your website even though I haven't read very much of it because I too have a website that is mainly so I can figure out what I believe and lay it all out - it may help someone too just like your thoughts help others who also question the same things you do. You have a good attitude too, not arrogant or lording over others, just being a Christian with thoughts and questions, which is a good thing, God never told us to shut our brains off! : )<br /><br />God bless you on your journey Jon!<br />LoriJesus Loves Mehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02205208694040464596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-4730159385989123242016-04-29T12:08:36.214-05:002016-04-29T12:08:36.214-05:00Too much emphasis on the Doctrine of Justification...Too much emphasis on the Doctrine of Justification by Faith? When is the last time anyone heard a sermon or teaching or anything written. In today's Christian literature on the doctrine. Heaven help us.<br />rodgerahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05624380150061391688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-66735052123909114332016-03-31T13:09:59.844-05:002016-03-31T13:09:59.844-05:00Thank you for posting this.Thank you for posting this.Ministry of Designhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01134660237416240272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-7737483090916132182016-03-29T11:37:30.621-05:002016-03-29T11:37:30.621-05:00The Didache was basically a church manual. It was ...The Didache was basically a church manual. It was not included in the cannon of scripture, because it was never intended as scripture. It would be kind of like including an early liturgy in the Bible (while St. Paul makes reference to early hymns, creeds, sayings and prayers that people reading his letters would have recognized, and he even affirms them as right, good, and worthy, those things weren't included in the cannon of scripture either.) This is part of the reason that Holy Tradition is so important. It, in many cases, faithfully preserves these other things. Also, remember that what we refer to as "The Bible" or "The Scriptures" are not what the early church would have recognized as a single thing. "The Bible" as we know it is a collection of many books consisting of sacred Jewish texts and writings of the Apostles (or their close associates). So, just like you would have a bunch of books on your library shelf, someone (a very rich someone, or a monastery or church or library) back then could have had a bunch of books on their shelves, and they would have divided them into categories like "these are the ones that were written by the apostles and their close associates" (aka "The Bible" to us) and "these are church manuals" (Didache, divine liturgies, etc) and "these are good books" (St Athanasius On the Incarnation) (and then, of course, maybe even "these are for fun" (The Odyssey) and "these are for historical reference" (Eusebius's Church History)"). "The Bible" literally means "books" after all, but when we say it, what we really mean is "Books written by the Apostles (or close associates) and collected into a single volume".<br /><br />There's a good explanation for why the Didache wasn't included in the cannon of scripture here:<br />http://christian-apologetics-society.blogspot.com/2009/02/didache-text-contradicts-christian.html<br /><br />Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10390792402946537573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-53624263064986498912016-02-18T05:10:30.325-06:002016-02-18T05:10:30.325-06:00Wow, these thoughts are amazing and really helpful...Wow, these thoughts are amazing and really helpful. Thanks Jon!<br />I had difficulties with this appeasing God's wrath for quite a while, but didn't know how to understand it differently without discarding the Bible.<br />What you write makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks againAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10749009804980767345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-40674470009655853522015-09-30T14:33:42.192-05:002015-09-30T14:33:42.192-05:00Does forbidden-fruit-eating merit eternal punishme...Does forbidden-fruit-eating merit eternal punishment?<br /><br />Dear Christians, have you ever stopped to think about what the Christian story really says: Someone committed a crime. There is a severe penalty for committing that crime. And there is one means to avoid the penalty for that crime and to expunge the record of the perpetrator of that crime.<br /><br />Crime: Forbidden fruit eating.<br /><br />Penalty: A lifetime of hard labor, disease, war, rape, torture, starvation, agonizing physical death, and horrific eternal punishment/torture in the after life.<br /><br />Means of Restitution: A human sacrifice.<br /><br />Dear Christians: Isn't it obvious? This is an ancient fable. No one living in the modern 21st century should believe this tall tale.<br />Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02519721717265344702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-35885130019399602015-07-27T16:52:40.864-05:002015-07-27T16:52:40.864-05:00---Our spiritual nature is so different from our m...---Our spiritual nature is so different from our material nature that in the Bible it is often represented or characterized as two different persons. When we seek the spiritual nature diligently enough and thus allow it to begin to develop this is characterized as being “born again.”<br />---As our material nature has all of the control over our life at first, it is often called “rich,” and the spiritual nature which is small or nonexistent is called “poor.”<br />---Letting alms sweat in your palms has nothing to do with giving money; that is not the topic being addressed. Explaining the spiritual meaning of a passage to someone not yet prepared to grasp it, can annoy or offend them and cause them to turn away from scripture altogether. Thus you should carefully evaluate the understanding of someone and be careful not to tell them things they are not yet able to understand.<br />---Taking from the rich and giving to the poor in the Bible (or Robinhood) is a way of indicating spiritual growth. Same concept is meant when John the Baptist says, “He must increase, I must decrease.” Taking from the rich and giving to the poor probably represents the process within an individual. Giving alms is also trying to increase spiritual understanding, but in someone other than ourselves.<br />Calebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04098946899489943534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-50282301474658105492015-07-27T16:48:59.224-05:002015-07-27T16:48:59.224-05:00---In this material world everything is about forc...---In this material world everything is about force. There are military, governmental, and cultural forces. There are also the forces of nature. And at a lower level all physical objects are composed of atoms or maybe even more elementary particles. Even the thoughts of our family members and close friends are the movements of electrons, molecules, etc. through neural pathways. We begin our adult life in a world where forces rule.<br />---Succeed in discovering the gate to the narrow path that few find and that can change. There in your “born again” state you turn can away from things of the material world. If you can succeed at that, you can hear (or experience) the “still small voice” of God. But until that gate opens for you, you are advancing on the spiritual path in the ways of the material world, in other words, by force.<br />---When you reach the point of the path Jesus was indicating, you no longer need to operate in the realm of force. You can now advance on the path by decreasing the attention you give to material things and consequently your spiritual nature will grow. The Bible characterizes this as taking from the rich (our material nature) and giving to the poor (our spiritual nature).<br /><br />---The Buddhist and Taoist traditions also mention this idea.<br /><br />A scholar tries to learn something every day; <br />A student of Buddhism tries to unlearn something daily. <br />(Alan Watts)<br /><br />In the pursuit of learning, every day something is acquired.<br />In the pursuit of Tao, every day something is dropped.<br />(Tao Te Ching - Chapter 48)<br /><br />---In modern Christianity I suppose this is an advanced teaching. Most American Christians follow Bible teachings at a much more literal level.Calebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04098946899489943534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-89593541093474437452015-07-27T12:24:36.273-05:002015-07-27T12:24:36.273-05:00---This is a difficult parable to get correct. Lik...---This is a difficult parable to get correct. Like most sacred texts, Christian, Buddhist or whatever, when a parable-like passage is explained or commented on, often the explanation is just as obtuse as the original. Check Samson’s riddle.<br />---This parable deliberately makes it easy to misinterpret as meaning that the righteous will gathered to the Lord and the evil will be burned. But a deeper and more meaningful message for those “that can hear” is in this parable.<br /><br />---Being “born again” is significant advance in understanding (it has nothing to do with a baptism ceremony). John the Baptist represents a person doing everything right on the Christian path, but not yet having achieved spiritual birth. The gospels make the point that anyone having given birth to their spiritual nature, however recently, is greater than the stage of development represented by JtB.<br /><br />---I don’t see how this parable’s meaning can makes sense to someone not yet born again. Or even to someone just recently born again. But travel a little way down the spiritual path and the meaning is a clear and helpful message.Calebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04098946899489943534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-75747606126292501112015-01-09T15:33:44.194-06:002015-01-09T15:33:44.194-06:00Thanks Sid.Thanks Sid.Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01266729238990589293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-89383773205912083892015-01-08T15:55:55.227-06:002015-01-08T15:55:55.227-06:00To sum it up:
If the debt is paid, then it is not ...To sum it up:<br />If the debt is paid, then it is not forgiven...it's just paid.<br /><br />The Biblical way of thinking has a lot more punch I'd say.<br /><br />Historically Anselm's <i>Cur Deus Homo</i> (1098) put Penal Substitution on the map. Since that thinking took a millennium to become popular, I'll stick to using language that's actually in the Bible! <br /><br />Good article.Sidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01715255750928982638noreply@blogger.com