Is Jesus the Reason For The Season?

What do we mean when we say Jesus is the reasons for the season?

I don't think He is the reason we celebrate with Christmas trees, expensive gifts, fancy turkey dinners, decorations, stockings, candles, and mistletoe.

In Jesus' day they didn't even celebrate birthday's, let alone Christmas. There were at least 300 years of Jesus followers who did not follow any Christmas traditions.

Many of the things we do at Christmas come from different cultures and traditions.  By saying Jesus is the reason, are we trying to steal the fun from non-Christians and claim it as our own?  If Christians can participate in activities that have pagan roots, shouldn't we let others own these traditions as well?

To be fair, I think people who want to say "Happy Holidays", or "Seasons Greetings" or "Give me presents Day" have just as much a rights to own the season as Christians do.  

There are things I love about the season - whatever you want to call it.  I love the emphasis on caring for others that is encouraged. I love how some stories of Jesus are told. And yes, I love the good food, and time with family and friends.  I will still say "Merry Christmas", but I don't claim to own the season more than others.

Or when we say Jesus is the reason for the season, are we saying we think Jesus wants us to celebrate Christmas?  Have you asked Him what He wants you to do this season?  Maybe He wants you to observe most Christmas traditions... but maybe He wants you to focus more on something else.  I can't answer this one for you.

If Christians were simply people who followed Christ... Jesus didn't get worked up defending Christmas...  I'm not sure if He would today either.

This season, and always, can we simply encourage each other to become more like Christ.

One verse I think applies to this is Romans 14:5

"One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. " (NIV)

I think every day is a Holy day. But I'm OK celebrating with others who like to make some days more special than others.

Related Posts:

• Why a Christmas Tree? 
• How Would Jesus Celebrate Christmas 
• Original Meaning of Christmas 
• Holidays and Holy Days

Are All Traditions Wrong?

I may sometimes sound like I don't like traditions.  But do I think all traditions are wrong?

No.

I like to ask questions like: Can we find evidence of this tradition in Scriputre?  But if I can't find an example of the tradition in Scripture, do I conclude it is wrong?

No.

For example. In our family we pray before we eat a meal together.  We close our eyes, bow our heads, and say a short prayer of thanks. This is a tradition we both grew up with, and it is a tradition we have continued on.  I don't know if this tradition is really rooted in Scripture. But that doesn't mean we need to abandon it.


So why do I care if something is a man made tradition or not. What difference does it make?

I find it gives me the freedom to question if it is the best way of doing something.  If something is a tradition that is not commanded or demonstrated in Scripture I think it is worth asking a few questions about it:

• When did we start this tradition?
• Why did we start this tradition?
• Are there better ways of doing things?
• What does the Bible have to say on the topic - if anything?
• Are we OK if some people do things different than us?

I know many people are fine keeping their traditions going.  But I think it is good and productive for them to be examined ever century or so.  So along my journey I've been questioning things like  Christmas, holidays, Sunday as a special day, sermons, hierarchical leadership, elders and pastors, order of service, church etymology, tithing, denominations, membership,  washing hands, and church financial statements.

Some of these traditions I will continue to support, but others don't make a lot of sense to me now. In some cases I think Scripture shows us alternate ways of doing things.  In most of these cases I am OK with other believers continuing with their traditions. But I'd encourage them to consider examining them for themselves.

What do you think.  Are there benefits to questioning traditions?

Influence of Ignatius

How much influence has Ignatius of Antioch (AD 35 - 107) had on how church has been structured for the past 2000 years?  Taking a look at church history can help us understand aspects of who we are today.  Ignatius of Antioch is considered one of the apostolic fathers, a leader of the early church believed to be a student of John the apostle.  He died a martyr in the Colosseum of Rome.

From what I've read his views on the office of bishop were not held in most other towns and cities during his life.  But over time the church across the Roman empire did adopt many of his beliefs.

So for the sake of understanding history here are quotes from Ignatius. 

"It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself."
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-ephesians-roberts.html

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out [through their office] the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as where Christ is, there does all the heavenly host stand by, waiting upon Him as the Chief Captain of the Lord's might, and the Governor of every intelligent nature. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize, or to offer, or to present sacrifice, or to celebrate a love-feast. But that which seems good to him, is also well-pleasing to God, that everything ye do may be secure and valid."
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-smyrnaeans-longer.html 

"He who honours the bishop has been honoured by God; he who does anything without the knowledge of the bishop, does [in reality] serve the devil."

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-smyrnaeans-longer.html

"Honour thou God indeed, as the Author and Lord of all things, but the bishop as the high-priest, who bears the image of God-of God. inasmuch as he is a ruler, and of Christ, in his capacity of a priest. After Him, we must also honour the king. For there is no one superior to God, or even like to Him, among all the beings that exist. Nor is there any one in the Church greater than the bishop, who ministers as a priest to God for the salvation of the whole world. "
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-smyrnaeans-longer.html
  

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Do you agree with these quotes?

Try substituting the terms bishop, presbytery, deacons with terms like pastor, elders, and ministry leaders. Does this help us understand how we got to a place with church hierarchical leadership structures like we see today?

Related Posts:

• Church Hierarchical Leadership
• What Titles Did Early Church Leaders Use?
• Jesus on Leadership
• Summary on Elders Overseers Shepherds - 9 post series

Dan Kimball Is Not Your Pastor

It is likely that Dan Kimball does care for and shepherd some people, but he doesn't encourage people to call him 'pastor' or 'lead pastor' anymore.  I came across this quote of his today:

"It happened little by little. It actually stemmed from about when I was actually leading Graceland, a young adult ministry – 1,000 college age young adults. I was at a street corner, I'm getting into my car and a car honked. These college-aged girls were looking over and waving. I'm looking up and I'm like "I don't know who they are." Then the light turns green and they yell in unison "you're our pastor!" as they're driving away. I'm just like, "I'm their pastor? I don't even know who they are." A pastor who shepherds knows their sheep, knows if one is missing. Then I started looking into what is theologically a pastor. It's only written once in the New Testament, the book of Ephesians. It wasn't even a title or an office. It was a spiritual gift of shepherding. And I'm just like "you know, I don't want to mislead people in our church to have them feel like I'm their pastor simply because they come and listen to me teach on a Sunday." There's people in this church that are really pastoring, according to what the Bible says what pastoring is. It's got to be relational, if one sheep is missing, [see] how they're doing. So I just stopped using that term; I don't know if there's anyone on our staff that uses it anymore. It's not that we don't shepherd [or] pastor but we just stopped using the title as to try to really function what I believe is more biblically without that title and to allow people who have pastoring gifts to be exercising those and feel just as valid and important as the person who gets up."
Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/dan-kimball-talks-churchland-judgmentalism-restoring-hope-in-the-church-79309/#r2mqF11xYQvm2HVk.99

I'm glad to see others are questioning the use of this term as an office title.

I'm also glad to see Dan Kimball encourages regular people to pastor and care for others in their community.  By sharing this role with all believers, and validating what each member contributes, more believers can mature in their faith.

What do you think?  Is there scriptural support for using the term 'Pastor' or 'Lead Pastor' as a title for a few hired staff?  

If we just read the Bible, would we have come to this practice, or did we get where we are by a different route?


Related Posts:

• What Titles Did Early Church Leaders Use?
• Jesus on Leadership
• Summary on Elders Overseers Shepherds - 9 post series
• Despise Titles of Honor 
• The First Pastors 
• I've Got The Best Senior Pastor
• Shepherding Basics

Sacraments

Shortly after posting that I was running out of sacred cows to tip, I realized I'd have to put some thought into the sacraments. 

Sacraments: an outward sign combined with a prescribed form of words and regarded as conferring some specific grace upon those who receive it.  

The following are the seven sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church:

• Baptism
• Confirmation
• Holy Eucharist
• Penance (Confession) 
• Anointing of the Sick 
• Holy Orders 
• Matrimony (Marriage) 

There is a lot of talk these days about defending the sacrament of marriage.  I am a little surprised to discover that for the protestant tradition, marriage or matrimony has not been considered a sacrament.


Most protestant traditions have held onto only 2 of the 7 sacraments of the RCC:

• Eucharist (Lords Supper or communion) 
• Baptism

Lords Supper 

I just did a post on some Lords Supper Thoughts.  I do see Jesus commanding His followers to remember His body and blood covenant by celebrating this meal together.  However I am concerned that what we traditionally call the Lords Supper, or communion is quite different than what Jesus was referring to.  If we feel this is a sacrament, I'd love to see believers following the example of Jesus and the early church on this.

Baptism 

I've recently put together some baptism summary thoughts. I concluded that immersion by water is a great symbol of being baptized with the Holy Spirit.  The command for us in Matt 28:18 - 20 is likely referring to baptism or immersion with the Holy Spirit (and Father, Son).  I suspect God is most interested in the matters of the heart. The early church, and most Christians throughout history have made an outward expression of this with immersion in water.  But I don't think I would conclude that the outward immersion by water should be on a top two list of the things God expects of us.


What do you think? Are these two items special sacraments?  Are we OK with the definition of sacraments in that these actions confer some specific grace upon those who receive it?

Or should other outward actions be added to this list?

What about loving one another?

Isn't love the outward sign that should identify those who belong to Christ?  Shouldn't that be considered a sacrament?

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." (John 13:33-35 NIV)

If you think we need a list of sacraments,  what do you think should be on the list?

Did Jesus make such a list for us?  If not, should we hold onto the list of the RCC? Or should we hold onto the shorter list of the reformers?

Related Posts:

• Lords Supper Thoughts
• Baptism Summary Thoughts 
• Love is Essential
• Running Out of Sacred Cows to Tip

God's Grace

I want to share a few thoughts on God's grace today.

I am thankful God doesn't deal fairly with me.  He gives me much more grace than I deserve.

Throughout the years I have done a lot of wrong.  My self centered actions have hurt others and myself.  Sometimes I've done selfish things on purpose, other times it just comes naturally to me. I'm sure there are even some selfish things I do that cause harm to others that I am not even aware of.

But God continues to be good to me.  He doesn't expect me to be perfect.  He simply wants me to love Him and learn to follow Him.

This understanding of God's grace gives me reason to be gracious and loving towards others.  Even others who are selfish and often wrong.

In terms of my Christian beliefs, I am recognizing God also doesn't expect us to have it all figured out.  He is gracious to believers with bad theology and un-Biblical traditions too.  As I look at church history, God has been very gracious to many believers with bad theology and practice.  I'm not sure if any group of believers has ever had it all figured out, even those in the early church.

I believe most bad theology and traditions are not intentional.  Most believers want to believe the truth and desire to follow biblical traditions.  The problem is we often start off looking to other people and follow less than perfect examples.

But God is gracious to each of us.

We need to also learn to be gracious and loving to others who are less than perfect.

I have no clue how God will sort it out. I don't know who is 'in' and who is 'out'.  But I know God has been gracious to me, and I am learning to be gracious to others.


May the grace of the Lord Jesus be with you.

Francis Chan - Have you ever studied this Book for yourself?

Many find it easy to spot bad theology in others.

Many find it easy to spot un-biblical traditions in others.

But do we ever see the plank in our own eyes?

Are Your Ears Itching?

A good friend of ours was recently telling us how he really appreciated a video he watched from a well known pastor.  Our friend knows we we have been turned off by other things this pastor has said in the past, but wanted us to know that this man does have some good things to say, and we shouldn't write him off completely.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 (NIRV)

The time will come when people won't put up with true teaching. Instead, they will try to satisfy their own longings. They will gather a large number of teachers around them. The teachers will say what the people want to hear. The people will turn their ears away from the truth. They will turn to stories that aren't completely true.

 I was reminded of this passage.  Other translations speak of people listening to things that their itching ears want to hear.

Is this passage speaking about me? Is this passage speaking about the reformed camp? Is this passage speaking about the emergent camp? Is this passage speaking about specific denominations or movements within Christianity.

I think the fact is we all like to listen to people that we agree with.


This happens outside of church as well.  Think about what news sources you choose.  You may think some news sources are biased in certain ways, so you avoid them.  But there are other people who think your news sources are biased in other ways.

The danger of course is that we write off people we think we disagree with, and don't allow them to influence us.  Over time people become very polarized in there thinking.

If you look at the church today, I fear this is happening.




For awhile I really enjoyed listening to The God Journey podcasts of Wayne Jacobsen and Brad Cummings. I heard them say many refreshing things.   I can't find an exact quote of one thing, but I believe they said something along these lines. That they believed something was wrong if someone was still listening to them for over a year. They believed they had a message to share, but they didn't want people simply switching from following some other people to later become dependent on following Wayne and Brad.

So what can be done?

• I think we need to be careful of the sources we choose to influence us.
• We need to be listening to the Holy Spirit who guides us.
• Be prepared for growth. The Holy Spirit will likely nudge you at times to be influenced by ideas you are not comfortable with.

Maybe I need to watch this video my friend liked... 

Poll: Holy Days True or False

We have just gone through one of the biggest holidays (Holy Days) recognized by our culture.

I'd like to know if you think it is more of a Holy Day than the rest?

Is there something different about the Christmas season that can not be replicated on other days the rest of the year?

What about other Holy Days like Easter? Or like Sundays or the Sabath?

I've been wondering what most people think on this. I'm not 100% sure myself. Does the New Testament command us to observe certain Holy Days? I'd like to know if I'm missing something.

This Christmas season I've observed that people seem to behave a little different at this time of year. It is mostly a good thing. Most people are a little extra friendly, wishing people Merry Christmas. People are seeking Joy and Peace. There is an extra emphasis on charity and giving to others. And people seem more open to Jesus. All good things.

The extra shopping, greed and gluttony may not be great... but the good may outweigh the bad. :)

But I've been wondering if Dec 25th is really a God sanctified Holy Day? Has God set this day aside to be something special?

Romans 14:5 confirms to me that I'm OK believing every day is a Holy Day. That every day can be one where God's presence is real and active in our lives, and we can respond to Him with worship/love. We should get together with other believers as often as we can to build each other up to become more like Christ.

Is this similar to the shift we see in the New Testament where we see there is no longer special temples where we must go to worship God (John 4:19-24, Acts 17:24, 1 Cor 3:16, 1 Pet 2:5, 1 Cor 6:19, 2 Cor 6:16, Eph 2:19-22). God wants His worshipers to worship in Spirit and truth, everywhere and all the time.

But I'd love to hear from you. Please answer this survey question, and leave comments if you feel you want to explain your answer.






Thanks!

Related Posts:

• Holidays and Holy Days
• Sabbath vs Day of the Sun
• Why a Christmas Tree?
• How Would Jesus Celebrate Christmas
• Original Meaning of Christmas

Holidays and Holy Days

"One person considers one day to be above another day. Someone else considers every day to be the same. Each one must be fully convinced in his own mind." Rom 14:5 (HCSB)

The word holiday has it's roots with the words Holy Days. It's the idea that certain days are set aside because of some special religious significance.

I think the above verse is fitting for our Christian culture of today. There is a lot of religious focus around the date Dec 25th. I think most Christian's know that this date is not likely the actual date of Jesus' birth, but they want to have a special day set aside to celebrate the significance of our Lord's coming.

However there are other Christians who are concerned that a lot of what happens around Christmas comes from pagan roots, and that a lot also comes from current commercial greed.

Then I consider other Holy Days.

Much of Easter can be traced back to pagan origins.

Sunday as the day the church gathers has links to Sun worship of the pagans.

Paul in Romans 14 was talking about a debate over eating certain types of food. I think what he says has some valuable advice for us regarding holidays or Holy Days. If you struggle with this issue, please read the whole chapter. Here are two more bits:

Rom 14:10-11 (HCSB)

"But you, why do you criticize your brother? Or you, why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before the tribunal of God. Whoever observes the day, observes it for the honor of the Lord..."

Rom 14:22-23 (HCSB)

"Do you have a conviction? Keep it to yourself before God. The man who does not condemn himself by what he approves is blessed. But whoever doubts stands condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from a conviction, and everything that is not from a conviction is sin."

I take from this chapter:

• I may not view certain days as Holy and others as not. To me every day is equally Holy.
• Other brothers and sisters see things differently, and it is not my job to judge.
• I see value in each person studying the topics, seeking God, and deciding for themselves what is right.
• But what is right for you, may not be right for me, so let's keep cool about it either way.

Related Posts:

• Sabbath vs Day of the Sun
• Why a Christmas Tree?
• How Would Jesus Celebrate Christmas
• Original Meaning of Christmas
• I'm not that kind of Christian
• Unity is Essential
• Judgemental Christians

Alan Knox's post Replay: Jesus is the Reason… for our lack of unity? got me on this topic this morning.

Why a Christmas Tree?

Why do you have a Christmas tree inside your house?

I have an odd sense of humor. This one gets me chuckling at people. I think we are a funny lot. I think it's pretty random that at this time of year people put a fair bit of energy into getting either an evergreen tree, or a fake thing that looks like an evergreen tree and place it in a prominent place in their home.

Why a tree?

Why not a shepherds rod?

A simple stick could be placed in the center of our living room as a memory of the shepherds the good news was shared with. This could remind us that simple folk can also share the good news with others.

We could celebrate by dancing around the pole... OK, I digress.

Why not a feeding trough?

We could decorate a feeding trough with fake hay, and fake animal feed. This could remind us of the upside down nature of the kingdom of God. How our Majestic God chose a humble and dirty place for His coming to earth.

A feeding trough could also have a second meaning, symbolizing how we tend to act like gluttonous pigs during this season. No, maybe we don't want to celebrate our gluttony. I digress again....

Do we know why we put up a tree?

There may be a few origins to this tradition. I'll share a few findings I've come across. There may be many more.

Many Pagan cultures used to cut boughs of evergreen trees in December, move them into the home or temple, and decorate them. Modern-day Pagans still do. This was to recognize the winter solstice -- the time of the year that had the shortest daylight hours, and longest night of the year. This occurs annually sometime between DEC-20 to 23; most often, it is DEC-21. As the solstice approached, they noticed that the days were gradually getting shorter; many feared that the sun would eventually disappear forever, and everyone would freeze. But, even though deciduous trees, bushes, and crops died or hibernated for the winter, the evergreen trees remained green. They seemed to have magical powers that enabled them to withstand the rigors of winter.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_tree.htm

Or this account of Pagan Rome and Pagan Egypt:

"The Christmas tree, now so common among us, was equally common in Pagan Rome and Pagan Egypt. In Egypt it was the palm tree; in Rome it was the fir; the palm-tree denoting the Pagan Messiah, as Baal-Tamar, the fir referring to him as Baal-Berith. The mother of Adonis, the Sun-God and great mediatorial divinity, was mystically said to have been changed into a tree, and when in that state to have brought forth her divine son. If the mother was a tree, the son must have been recognized as ‘Man the Branch.’ And this entirely accounts for putting the Yule Log into the fire on Christmas Eve and the appearance of the Christmas tree the next morning. As Zero-Ashta, ‘The seed of the woman,’ ...he has to enter the fire on ‘Mother night,’ that he may be born the next day out of it, as the ‘Branch of God,’ or the Tree that brings divine gifts to men."
http://www.carnaval.com/saturnalia/

Later on in the 1500's

According to the first documented uses of a Christmas tree in Estonia, in 1441, 1442, and 1514, the Brotherhood of Blackheads erected a tree for the holidays in their brotherhood house in Reval (now Tallinn). At the last night of the celebrations leading up to the holidays, the tree was taken to the Town Hall Square where the members of the brotherhood danced around it.[9] In 1584, the pastor and chronicler Balthasar Russow wrote of an established tradition of setting up a decorated spruce at the market square where the young men “went with a flock of maidens and women, first sang and danced there and then set the tree aflame”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree

Oh, that sounds like fun. This year I'll dance around our Christmas tree, then set it on fire! That will make a great family memories video.... :)

Here is another account, linking it to a feast day of Adam and Eve:

The main prop of a popular medieval play about Adam and Eve was a fir tree hung with apples (paradise tree) representing the Garden of Eden. The Germans set up a paradise tree in their homes on December 24, the religious feast day of Adam and Eve. They hung wafers on it (symbolizing the host, the Christian sign of redemption); in a later tradition, the wafers were replaced by cookies of various shapes. Candles, too, were often added as the symbol of Christ. In the same room, during the Christmas season, was the Christmas pyramid, a triangular construction of wood, with shelves to hold Christmas figurines, decorated with evergreens, candles, and a star. By the 16th century, the Christmas pyramid and paradise tree had merged, becoming the Christmas tree.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree

I just stumbled across this verse that isn't typically part of our Christmas readings. It seems related to an early pagan festival with a decorated tree:

"This is what the LORD says: Do not learn the way of the nations or be terrified by signs in the heavens, although the nations are terrified by them, for the customs of the peoples are worthless.
Someone cuts down a tree from the forest; it is worked by the hands of a craftsman with a chisel. He decorates it with silver and gold. It is fastened with hammer and nails, so it won’t totter." Jeremiah 10:2-4 (HCSB)

I'll include a link here: http://www.cogwriter.com/christmas.htm to some interesting quotes from Tertullian (one of the leading 2nd/3rd century church writers). He seemed to be against participating in the pagan winter celebrations.

We do have a (fake) Christmas tree up in our home. I'm not at a place where I'm zealous about getting rid of Christmas trees. I mostly just think it's funny how we all have them without thinking about why we have them.

Kinda like many other traditions we have in life and church life.

If you have a Christmas tree in your home, do you know why you have it? I'd love to hear more stories.


Related Posts:

• How Would Jesus Celebrate Christmas
• Original Meaning of Christmas
• Plugins Extensions and Add-ons and the Church

How Would Jesus Celebrate Christmas

What Would Jesus Do this Christmas?
Maybe a silly question. I'm really not sure.

How did Jesus celebrate the day he was born?

He likely cried, ate, slept, and ____ like most babies do.

How did Jesus celebrate the rest of his birthdays?

From what I've read the Jews of Jesus' day did not celebrate birthdays.

What about the early church? Did they celebrate birthdays?

Not according to Origen of Alexandria (c. 185 - 254 AD).

Origen had evidently some similar thought before him when he insists that "of all the holy people in the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod) who make great rejoicings over the day on which they were born into this world below" (Origen, "in Levit.", "Horn. VIII", in Migne P.G., XII, 495).
http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Natal_Day

It seems for the first couple of centuries of the early church birthday celebrations were a thing for sinners.

So I think it is safe to conclude Christmas was not celebrated by Jesus or even the early church.

How should we celebrate Christmas?

Since we can't follow Jesus or the early church on this one, what should we do? We could boycott Christmas all together... that would be odd wouldn't be?

Or we can chose to find ways to honor and worship our Lord Jesus, even on a day set aside with an overload of crazy traditions.

Shopping, gifts, Scripture reading, hospitality, trees, candles, baking, turkey, lights, tinsel, singing, snowmen, chocolate, nuts, acts of charity, santa, elves, reindeer...

Consider which traditions are worth making your own. And like the other 364 days of the year worship God and share God's love with others.

I'm not that kind of Christian

Alan Knox got me thinking this morning with a recent post called What Kind of Christian Are You?

Well I agree with Alan on this one. But my goal isn't to become like Alan. Sorry Alan :)

I'm not that kind of Christian.

I grew up a preacher's kid. Baptist and interdenominational.

If you have any preconceived ideas about what kind of person that creates... you may be right in some areas and wrong in others.

But please don't assume I'm that kind of Christian.

I attended Providence Bible College for 2 years before going to University. I wanted to have a firm foundation in my faith before going out into the 'secular' work force.

If you have any preconceived ideas about what kind of person that makes me ... you may be right in some areas and wrong in others.

But please don't assume I'm that kind of Christian.

Most Sunday's you will find me attending a Christian and Missionary Alliance Sunday morning service. My closest friends are part of this community of believers.

But please don't assume I'm that kind of Christian.

I have had open dialog with Christians from various denominations. I have made an effort to attend a number of different Sunday morning services: Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, United, Baptist, Mennonite, Pentecostal. I have respect and love for what I've seen in believers of all types.

But please don't assume I'm that kind of Christian.

I have been influenced recently by books by N. T. Wright, Wayne Jacobsen, Tony and Felicity Dale, Frank Viola. I have been influenced by blog writers like Alan Knox, Miguel Labrador, Jeremy Meyers, Eric Carpenter, Rachel Evans, ... (danger with starting a list like this is I will miss some - sorry).

But please don't assume I'm like all the other Emergent, Organic, Simple, liberal Christians you've heard bad things about.

My goal is not to become like these other Christians.

We often have people into our home. We pray these times are an encouragement to others in their walk to become more like Christ. I see people teaching each other stuff about their faith in God. Usually more of an informal type of teaching. Does that mean we have an house church, or a small group bible study? No.

I'm not that kind of Christian.

My theology doesn't line up well with Reformed theology. But if you conclude that I don't like to fellowship with those with Reformed theology, you are wrong. I just happen to enjoy dialoging and working through some of these topics. I don't judge people based on their theology.

I'm not that kind of Christian.

Every denomination has some traditions that to me seem to over complicate or divide Christ's church. But that doesn't mean I don't love my brothers and sisters who love their traditions.

I'm not that kind of Christian.

If you have a foul mouth, dirty mind, and like to enjoy more pleasures this world offers than I do. Please feel comfortable being yourself around me. Don't assume I am judging you.

I'm not that kind of Christian.

Please don't try to label me and judge me by my background, my theology, who influences me, or what traditions I hold or discard.

I will try not to judge you by your background, your theology, who influences you, or what traditions you hold or discard. I know I am not the judge. I see little benefit in attempting to be the judge on these matters.

I guess if you want to know who I am, you'll have to get to know me.

(But I don't expect everyone on the planet will feel the need or urge to get to know me - and that is OK.)

If you claim Christ as Lord, and our paths cross... Our task is not to judge, build walls, and divide. Our task is to build each other up to become more like Christ.

Related Posts:

• My Role with Church
• Love is Essential
• Unity is Essential
• Judgemental Christians

Playdough Scripture 2 Thessalonians 2:15

"Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions you were taught, either by our message or by our letter by your favorite denominations or movements of the past 2000 years."
2 Thessalonians 2:15 (Playdough Version)



This playdough scripture was triggered by Eric's post today: Some Traditions Really Are Helpful.


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Plugins Extensions and Add-ons and the Church

"Speed up browsing by disabling add-ons." I keep getting this message when I use Internet Explorer. I just checked Firefox and counted 13 plugins and extensions. I should sort through which ones I need to keep and discard the rest. If you have too many add-ons life slows down. We all know people who fill up every spare minute of their lives with activities and clubs. Its worth taking a moment now and then to sort out our priorities, and disable some add-ons.

From the studies I've done on what church meant in the New Testament here, here and here I believe church is people of God and when they get together. However when I look at church today I see a lot of extra things that have been added over the years. Extra additions are not necessarily bad. Sometimes people get so used to these extra things that they can't imagine church without them. Sometimes these extra things get most of the focus, a lot of resources and time.

I think it is worth recognizing that the way church is now is not the way it has always been, and it is not the way it has to be.

This is a simple summary list of some extras the church has added over the years. I won't attempt to do in-depth research here on any of it. If you have any questions feel free to comment.

Video/Multimedia presentations - a recent addition by our generation

Sound technicians - another fairly recent addition

Worship Band - styles of music have changed throughout the years. There was a time when the only musical instruments were voices.

Youth Groups - YMCA and YWCA were some of the first ministries aimed at young adults and teens. These were founded in the 1850s. Now youth groups are seen as an important part of most church communities.

Sunday School - Started in the 1780s, originally started to teach poor children to read. Now it is hard to imagine a church community without a Sunday School program for children.

VBS - I was surprised at this one. VBS ministries have actually been going for over 100 years. But still in the scope of church history a relatively recent addition.

Bible College - it seems Christian education in the early days was more of an apprenticeship model. Studying Scriptures would have been important to the early church, but there is no mention of Bible Colleges in the New Testament. Christian leaders haven't always had certificates, diplomas, and degrees in Christian education.

Church Libraries - early church gatherings would have been lucky if they had copies of some of the New testament writings. It took a few hundred years to put them together into a collection we call the Bible. Today most church communities have libraries with hundreds of books and audio and video resources.

Pews/Chairs - people sitting in rows of pews were not common until the Reformation 500 years ago, around the same time when the sermons became more of a focus.

Ushers - just a guess here, but I suspect ushers were not needed before the pews.

Sermons as the main part of the gathering - I guess it depends what you call a sermon. There were lengthy speeches or sermons in the NT. And believers obviously spoke and taught each other whenever they got together. However it seems there was usually audience participation during these speeches. When did a 30 minute monolog become the main part of the gatherings?

Church Buildings - the early church met in homes, and in public spaces. Some of these private homes were converted to accommodate growing gatherings. However there were over 3000 believers in the church in Jerusalem with no records of an early mega-church building project.

Staff - some research suggest it wasn't until 300 years after Christ that some introduced the practice of tithing to support a paid clergy. This practice did not become widespread until about 700 AD. It is now common to have multiple staff on a payroll.

Church annual meetings - they make sense if you have buildings, staff, programs and a leadership structure that wants input from a membership. It is unlikely the NT church held annual meeting to vote on a budgets and discuss programs if they didn't have staff, programs and special buildings.

Board meetings - with all the above extras added to the church, it seems there is a need for a group of leaders to make decisions about these things.


Most Christian (in the West at least) value these extras. Many of these extras can help build relationships that build up believers to become more like Christ. It's not all bad.

Take a moment though and try to imagine church without the add-ons.

What would the church be left with? You may find it hard to imagine what the church was like before these things were added. I can imagine a group of believers with a simple focus of loving God and loving others.

I find myself fellowshipping with others who value more plugins and add-ons than I do. But when I can, I am now saying no-thanks to some of the add-ons. I see value in focusing on the church, the people, without the extras. That is the church I am committed to.


Related Posts:

• Church Etymology
• Jesus on Church
• I don't go to Church
• My 95 Thesis - Point 11 - Sermon Centered
• My 95 Thesis - Point 13 - Temple Worship
• Temple Blueprint
• Tithing in the OT
• Should pastors be paid a salary

Original Meaning of Christmas

Recently discovery! Here is a picture of an early church Christmas celebration:

"The early Christians did not celebrate Christ's birth because they considered the celebration of anyone's birth to be a pagan custom."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday

Wait a minute. Aren't Christian's supposed to be fighting to keep Christ as the true meaning of Christmas. Well I think that may depend on which Christmas traditions you are defending...

Date:

Many cultures had winter festivals long before Christ. The Romans had a festival called Saturna which occurs 8 days before the winter solstice.

Dies Natalis Solis Invicti means "the birthday of the unconquered sun". December 25 was Mithras' birthday, some sort of sun-god. It seems the Romans love for the sun had some influence on the date we celebrate for Christmas. (Just like Roman sun worship played a role in Sunday being the day for weekly worship.)

Gift giving:

- was part of the roman festival Saturna

Visiting friends:

- was part of the roman festival Saturna

Decorations:

- again people in the Roman Empire brought branches from evergreen plants indoors in the winter (before Christianity)


And then over the past 2000 years different cultures have added the Christmas tree, cards, Father Christmas, Saint Nicholas, special foods, songs and decorations.

So which Christmas traditions are we defending? I think they are simply a mixture of traditions, some created by the church, and some from various cultures.

Of course not all traditions are wrong. I look forward to spending time together with family, and enjoying some great food together. I look forward to placing special attention to the narrative of Jesus in scripture. And it is great that there is often a special interest in caring for the poor during this season.

I'm not suggesting we need to re-thing celebrating Christmas. I just want to add to our mindset a historical perspective on Christmas and birthdays.

Romans 14:5 (NIV)

One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.

I guess in the spirit of Romans 14:5-18, it is not for us to judge others on the basis of if they celebrate a certain day or not.



Some sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/holidaysfestivals/a/solsticeceleb_4.htm


Related Post:

• Sabbath vs Day of Sun

My 95 Thesis - Point 10 - Denominations

Here's my 10th Point in My 95 Theses.

Yes, it is related to unity, which is my 1st point... but I want to focus on a specific concern.

Where do we get the idea that having different denominations is acceptable? Is Christ's church divided? Are we dividing Christ's body? Or are we assuming that our denomination is the only real church?

I used to agree that having denominations was a necessary evil. How else could all these different 'church' institutions function considering they all have different traditions and unique beliefs.

However now I am trying to view church differently. Not as a location, event, institution or corporation but as the body of all those in Christ's kingdom. It is not so much where a person spends their Sunday morning, or which group they belong to. If Christ is Lord of someone's life they are part of Christ's one true church.

Is there really a need for denominations? Is there any Scriptural support?

Related Posts:

• Unity is Essential
• If Protestants Accepted Sola Scriptura
• Why are there divisions and schisms
• Do doctrines unite?
• Can I find unity without agreement on essentials?
• Judgmental Christians
  

History Repeats Itself

I think the Religion of the Pharisees of Jesus day started with the relationship that God had initiated with them but over the years they added so many layers of other stuff that the relationship was suffering. We can see Jesus, Paul and others challenging the Pharisees to abandon the traditions and laws of their religion that were holding them back from the grace and love of a relationship with God.

So Jesus comes to restore His relationship with his children. His followers actually had God's Spirit living in them. Their selfish ways would die, and they would be guided instead by the will of their Father.

But I'm afraid we've added stuff to this. Just like the Pharisees, over time we've slowly accumulated additional beliefs, laws, and traditions. Are some of these things hindering the relationship that Jesus came to restore?

• Special buildings for places of worship
• The distinction between clergy and laity
• Sermons preached to a passive audience sitting in rows
• Thinking Church is a Sunday morning event, a building, or an organization/corporation
• The Lords Supper or communion as a small sip and bite instead of a full meal
• Little room for spontaneity at the Sunday morning event
• Having large time gaps between conversion and baptisms, or placing participation in some classes as a prerequisite to baptism
• Christian academic education instead of apprenticeship styled discipleship
• Focus on serving church programs instead of a focus on serving one another
  
• Viewing the Bible as the final authority of our faith
• Acceptance of denominations and divisions

Anything else?

I won't even attempt to list all the doctrines and/or values that different 'church' traditions would list as essentials. The lists would differ from 'church' to 'church', and most would be longer than the Apostle's creed, and highlight more recent divisions and distinctives.

Am I wrong, but has the Christian church repeated the errors of the religious Pharisees?

Many of these traditions are not wrong in themselves. However I think it is important to first recognize that certain things we do are extras.

I pray we can find a way to restore our faith to be one centered on the relationship our Lord desires to have with each of us personally, and with His body communally.


Related Posts:

• Word in you
• Sola Scriptura
• I don't go to church
• Asleep in the pews
• Unity is Essential
  

Does Scripture say Hell is Eternal Punishment?

OK, one more summary post on this 'Hot Topic' of Hell. Most Christian denomination teach that Hell is a place of eternal conscious punishment for the wicked. There are some verses that when read alone can make a good case for this belief. There are other verses that imply the consequence for not seeking to live in God's kingdom, is death, perishing, being destroyed, a second death, or not getting to live for eternity.

Either way, eternity with God is a better choice.

If you are of the opinion that you don't understand, and that there are more important things to focus on while living this life than trying to figure out exactly what eternity will look like.. read no further... do not waste another moment on this debate... I agree with you 100%.

Still reading? Then I also want to say that I'm not sure getting this correct is as essential to ones faith as maintaining unity and love. I strongly believe scripture is crystal clear that unity is essential, and love is essential for all in the body of Christ. If attempting to dialog on less essential topics like this causes harm to unity and love, then we should take a break from the dialog and agree to disagree until the Holy Spirit prompts further growth in us.

OK, enough of a preamble... If you think it is important to have a firm position on the eternal conscious punishment in hell, and hold a high view of Scripture, I'd suggest it's worth looking at verses on either side of this issue. I confess I had strong beliefs on this issue for years without searching the scriptures for myself.

Verses That Don't Sound Like Eternal Punishment

Ezekiel 18:4 (NIV)

For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

(Do all souls live forever? - Ezekiel 18:20 repeats "The soul who sins is the one who will die")

Matthew 3:12 (NIV)

"His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

('burning up the chaff' - does this sound like the chaff keeps burning, or burns up.)

Matt 7:13-14 (NIV)

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

(Destruction for some... life for others)

Matthew 10:28 (NIV)

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

(destroy both soul and body in hell)

Matthew 19:16 (NIV)

Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

(doesn't everyone get eternal life? what does eternal life mean? will those in hell live forever?)

Matthew 19:29 (NIV)

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

(again what does eternal life mean? will those in hell live forever?)

Luke 10:25 (NIV)

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

(again eternal life for some... implies some won't have eternal life.)

Luke 13:1-5 (NIV)

Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you to will all perish."

(what kind of perish? Like having a tower fall on them? Not very eternal. If Jesus wanted to say "unless you repent, you to will all be punished eternally in Hell", I think he could have said it, and also found a better analogy.)

John 3:15 (NIV)

that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life

(again eternal life for some... implies some won't have eternal life)

John 3:16 (NIV)

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

(did Jesus mean "... shall not have eternal life of torment but have eternal life of bliss"?)

John 3:36 (NIV)

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

(some get eternal life... and others will not see life)

John 4:14 (NIV)

but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

(again eternal life for some... implies some won't have eternal life)

John 5:24 (NIV)

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

(here eternal life means they have crossed over from death to life)

John 6:40 (NIV)

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

(again not everyone will get eternal life? will those in hell live forever?)

John 6:47 (NIV)

I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

(everlasting life? will everyone live forever, even those in hell?)

John 6:50 (NIV)

But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die

(who will not die? everyone?)

John 6:51 (NIV)

I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

(who will live forever? will those in hell live forever?)

John 6:54 (NIV)

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

(not everyone will get eternal life? will those in hell live forever?)

John 6:58 (NIV)

This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."

(who will live forever? will those in hell live forever?)

John 8:51 (NIV)

I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

(who will not see death? will those in hell live forever?)

John 10:28 (NIV)

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

(not everyone will get eternal life? will those in hell live forever?)

John 12:25 (NIV)

The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

(not everyone will get eternal life? will those in hell live forever?)

Romans 2:7 (NIV)

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

(Do we all possess immortality? Will everyone live forever?)

1 Timothy 6:15-16 (NIV)

which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

(Do we all possess immortality? Will everyone live forever?)

Romans 5:21 (NIV)

so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

(not everyone will get eternal life? will those in hell live forever?)

Romans 6:13 (NIV)

Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.

(what could it mean to be brought from death to life?)

Rom 6:23 (NIV)

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

(death for sinners - eternal life is the gift God is offering)

Romans 8:13 (NIV)

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

(sinners will die - those living by the Spirit will live)

1 Corinthians 1:18 (NIV)

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

(some will perish, others are being saved)

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (NIV)

and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

(some will perish, others are being saved)

Galatians 6:8 (NIV)

The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

(some will be destroyed, others will receive eternal life)

Philippians 3:19 (NIV)

Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.

(some will be destroyed)

1 John 2:17 (NIV)

The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.

(will everyone live forever?)

1 John 3:15 (NIV)

Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

(will murderer's have eternal life in Hell?)

1 John 5:11 (NIV)

And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

(Is God giving everyone eternal life? Some get good eternal life, some bad eternal life?)

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 (NIV)

"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power."

(what does destruction mean? Are they destroyed for eternity?)

2 Peter 2:12 (NIV)

But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

(perish and destroyed)

2 Peter 3:7 (NIV)

By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

(ungodly men are destroyed?)

2 Peter 3:9 (NIV)

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

(what does perish mean?)

James 4:12 (NIV)

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

(some are saved, some are destroyed)

James 5:20 (NASB)

let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

(can a soul die?)

1 John 3:14 (NIV)

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

(contrast is death vs life... not eternal torment vs eternal bliss)

Jude 1:7 (NIV)

"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."

(What kind of example was Sodom and Gomorrah? Are they still being punished? The fire may be eternal, but we know that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed.)

Revelation 2:11 (NIV)

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

(What could second death mean? To die a second time, after the final judgment?)

Revelation 20:6 (NIV)

Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

(What could second death mean? To die a second time, after the final judgment?)

Rev 20:12-15 (NIV)

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

(What could second death mean? To die a second time, after the final judgment?)

Rev 21:8 (NIV)

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

(What could second death mean? To die a second time, after the final judgment?)

Other Explanations for some of these verses

Some have argued that the word destroyed and perish in some of these verse don't actually mean they die. Some say some of the words would be better translated lost. Others explain that what is meant in some of these verses is that it is simply describing a bad thing that happens to the wicked.

I've read a few of these arguments, but sorry I can't do a good job repeating them. There are simply too many verses here, and they are consistently translated using destroy, perish, death, etc, contrasted with life, eternal life, etc. If we can't trust most of our translations on all these verses, we've got another problem. If there was just one or two obscure verses, I'd consider these arguments...

It's Greek to Me

You may be used to reading these verses in non-literal ways. Not thinking that

• perish could mean perish or die
• destruction could mean destruction or die
• destroy could mean destroy or kill
• death could mean death
• eternal life could mean living forever

If you are used to reading parts of some verses literally, but other parts of the same verses figuratively, have you ever asked yourself why? (In a previous post I ask why do we read parts of some verses literally, and other parts of the same verses figuratively?)

Here is some greek if that helps as you try to sort out what the above verses could mean.

Destruction in Matt 7:13, Phil 3:19, 2 Pet 3:7
apoleia ap-o'-li-a: ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal) -- damnable(-nation), destruction, die, perdition, perish, pernicious ways, waste.

Perish from verses like Luke 13:3-5; John 3:15, John 10:28, 1 Cor 1:18, 2 Thes 2:10, 2 Peter 3:9
apollumi ap-ol'-loo-mee: to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively -- destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Perish from 2 Peter 2:12
Destruction from Gal 6:8
phthora fthor-ah': decay, i.e. ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

Destruction in 2 Thess 1:9
olethros ol'-eth-ros: a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. death, punishment -- destruction.

Destroy in Matt 10:28
apokteino ap-ok-ti'-no: to kill outright; figuratively, to destroy -- put to death, kill, slay

Death in Rom 6:23
thanatos than'-at-os: (properly, an adjective used as a noun) death -- deadly, (be...) death.

Eternal from John 3:16
aionios ahee-o'-nee-os: perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) -- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Life from John 3:36 (both times)
zoe dzo-ay': life -- life(-time).

(all greek definitions from http://scripturetext.com )

Ok... I could spend another day looking at the greek and checking if 'the' means 'the'.
I guess if someone wants to believe that in all these verses destroy, death, perish, die are not literal but mean "bad stuff happens - like being tormented for eternity" that is up to them.

I find it interesting that the same people who would argue that death and annihilation are not just and fair enough... that the wicked deserve greater punishment than death... will tone down verses that say perish to mean "a loss". Perish is too strong in these verses, because they want the wicked to survive to be tormented for eternity. (???)

Verses That Support Eternal Torment

Matthew 18:8 (NIV)

If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

Matthew 25:30 (NIV)

And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Matthew 25:41 (NIV)

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Matt 25:46 (NIV)

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Luke 16:22-24 (NIV)

"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

Revelation 14:9-11 (NIV)

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

Revelation 19:3 (NIV)

And again they shouted: "Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever."

Rev 20:10 (NIV)

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Other Possible Explanations for these verses

Matthew 18:8 - does not state if the person would survive in this eternal fire or if they would perish in it.

Matthew 25:30 - people would also weep and gnash their teeth on their way to being destroyed. Again this verse does not state eternal torment.

Matthew 25:41 - again does not state if the person would survive in this eternal fire. It could be similar to Gehenna. Gehenna (translated hell in our Bibles) was a burning garbage dump near Jerusalem which burned forever. Things thrown into the burning garbage dump would be destroyed. The fire burned forever, but the things thrown into it perished.

Matt 25:46 - This one is a bit harder to explain away... it does say "eternal punishment".
For myself I'm fine giving a point to the eternal punishment side. :)
There are some who have alternate explanations for this verse, you can try these:
http://www.bcrevolution.ca/eternal_torment.htm
http://www.wrestedscriptures.com/B03Hell/matthew25v46.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/EternalPunishmentNotTrueToGreek.html

Luke 16:22-24 - Not sure if this fits the doctrine of Hell - where the wicked go after the final judgment. This story continues describing how the rich man wanted to send someone back to warn his family members who were still alive on earth. If anything this is a description of some abode of the dead before the final judgment - or some purgatory like place.. ???

Revelation 14:9-11 - tormented in the presence of the angels and the Lamb... forever and ever?? Are they being tormented in Heaven or in Hell? This may not be after the final judgment but a separate punishment for those who took the mark of the beast. If you continue reading Revelations there are still people on earth... I don`t have a great understanding of Revelations, but I`m not sure this passage speaks of final judgment for all the wicked.

Revelation 19:3 - again I'm not sure if this great prostitute refers to all the wicked after the final judgement.

Rev 20:10 - The devil, the beast and the false prophets may be eternal beings... they may possess eternal life - and spend it in Hell. This verse may not say anything about eternal punishment for mortals.

Used for either Side

Mark 9:43-48 (NIV)

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where " 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

This passage is often used to support the idea that hell is eternal. But we also need to consider that Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24 here:

"And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." (NIV)

Note the reference to dead bodies, not living bodies. Also Gehenna (translated hell in our Bibles) was a burning garbage dump near Jerusalem. Things thrown into the burning garbage dump would be destroyed. The fire burned forever, but the things thrown into it perished.

Two Sides, Which Side To Pick?

There are some verses above that do not fit well in the 'Hell is eternal punishment' box.

There may be some verses above that do not fit well in 'God will annihilate them' box.

I see four options when confronted with a passage that doesn't fit in my box:

1. ignore the passage
2. re-word and re-explain it to force it to fit the box (playdough scripture)
   
3. Get a different box
   
4. admit I don`t understand it, don't know what box to use, and just keep collections of truths and questions scattered around like an unfinished puzzle for now... when/if I need to understand it, I believe the Holy Spirit will guide me to understand the truth.
   

I vote for option 4.

I'll conclude the belief in the eternal nature of hell is not an essential part of following Christ. If understanding this issue was a requirement of being a Christ follower, I think Jesus would have spent more time describing it.

Maybe, just maybe, we can agree to disagree on this one.

What difference does it make?

Here are some questions to consider:

• If God chooses to destroy (or allow to perish) those who do not choose to love Him.. is it not just and fair ? The death penalty is pretty severe... why do some think it is not harsh enough?
  
• Would God find pleasure in torturing the wicked for eternity? (Does God hate sinners?)
• A loving parent will often use forms of punishment or consequences because they want their children to learn something and make better choices next time. Our choices sometimes bring consequences that last forever. But what would be the benefit to an eternal conscious punishment in hell? There may be a difference between a consequence lasting forever and punishment lasting forever.
  
• Why the threat? Does God need to threaten us with eternal punishment to win our love and devotion?
• Does the way we view Hell come from the Scriptures alone, or from the Christian traditions we have inherited?
• Is Christianity about getting and selling fire insurance?
• Is Jesus going to hell?
  

If scripture was clear, I don't think I'd be asking the above questions. But there are enough verses to give me some doubt. I'd rather admit I don't know for sure one way or the other, than give someone a potentially false image of God.

Either way eternal life with Jesus is still the obvious choice. I'm just questioning if the doctrine of Hell, that most denominations support, is clearly true to scripture. To be destroyed or perish may simply mean that those who do not choose life with Christ do not get to live eternally.