Are the Wicked Punished in Hell Forever?

I've always heard that the wicked would be punished in Hell for eternity. Let's look at some verses:

Luke 13:1-5

"Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." (NIV)

What is the context of the word perish here? Perish like the people who had a tower fall on them?

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (NIV)

John 10:28

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand." (NIV)

Note that Jesus said 'perish' not eternal punishment.

John 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (NIV)

What does 'not see life' mean? Not live for eternity?

Jude 1:7

"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." (NIV)

How is this an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire? There could be an eternal fire that destroys the wicked in the same way that the people from Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. An eternal fire does not necessarily mean the wicked survive in the fire eternally.

Rom 6:23

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (NIV)

Again eternal life is contrasted with death - not an eternity of punishment.

Matt 7:13-14

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." (NIV)

What does destruction mean?

Verses used to support eternal punishment

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matt 25:46 NIV)

This does say eternal punishment. One explanation used to fit with the perish side is this: Consider someone getting multiple life sentences for a crime. It does not mean the person will live as long as the sentence. Is it possible that the punishment is eternal, but the life of the person is not eternal?

"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power" (2 Thes 1:9 NIV)

Could everlasting destruction mean they are destroyed forever?

Mark 9:43-48

"And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched. " (YLT)

We also need to consider that Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24 here:

"And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." (NIV)

Note the reference to dead bodies, not living bodies. Also Gehenna was a burning garbage dump near Jerusalem. Things thrown into the burning garbage dump would be destroyed. The fire burned forever, but the things thrown into it perished.

Either way eternal life with Jesus is still the obvious choice. I'm just questioning if the doctrine of Hell, that most denominations support, is true to scripture. To be destroyed or perish may simply mean that those who do not choose life with Christ do not get to live eternally.

What I don't know

The more I study the less I know... sadly that seems to be the way my earthly mind works.

So here is a summary of stuff I don't know... I will likely update this post as I discover more things I don't know with certainty.

I don't know which denomination has the best theology and doctrines

I have spent most Sundays in 'evangelical protestant churches'. However as I look at the different points of the protestant reformation, I can not say with certainty which side has the most correct answers. Both sides use scripture and logic to back their positions, but place greater emphasis in different places. I see some areas of concern in some Catholic doctrines. However I don't see any consensus in an evangelical systematic theology either. The holy scriptures were not written as a list of doctrines, maybe we are not supposed to create an airtight system of beliefs on all issues.

I don't know who all will be saved

I am not the final judge on this - thankfully God is! I will try not to be a judgmental Christian. I don't think the criteria will be based on which doctrines and statements of faith you agree with. It may have more to do with how we lived in relationship with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit and all His creation. But what about all the people who love God without understanding and loving Jesus? Or believe without following? Or follow without believing (if that is possible)? Or died as a child before they could really believe or follow? Or had the emotions of a child through some disability and could not understand? Or just believed and did the wrong things because that is what they were taught to do by their religious leaders? Or the ones who used to believe and follow, but then in their last months of life lost the passion and didn't end well? What about losing the passion for the last years of life? Or most of their adult life? I'm not qualified to be the judge. I'm OK leaving all this to God.

I don't know what to call the thing we do on Sunday morning

I believe I don't go to church, I am part of Christ's church. Should the word 'church' refer to an event, location, building or organization? I do value worshiping with others, and supporting others in their relationship with God, and we do this on Sunday mornings and throughout the week.

I don't know if the wicked are eternally punished in Hell

I don't know if the wicked are punished in Hell forever. Either way eternal life with Jesus is still the obvious choice. I'm just questioning if the doctrine of Hell, that most denominations support, is true to scripture. To be destroyed or perish may simply mean that those who do not choose life with Christ do not get to live eternally.

I don't know if the Bible has clear answers on all issues

The Bible gets used to give support for many topics. But does the Bible give clear answers on all issues? Should the Bible be used like a magic 8 ball to give answers on every topic? Many of these issues were not meant to be the central message of the gospel. We need to balance the fact that unity is essential, and loving everyone is essential, before we become dogmatic about any lesser issue.

I don't know why only 'church' leaders perform baptisms

Who was the great commission given to? To all Christ followers? Then who was instructed to baptize? Why do most Christ followers leave the great commission to the 'professionals'?

I don't know why some identify with John Calvin

There's some stuff about John Calvin that I think we should all want to distance ourselves from. However some people still call themselves "Calvanist" or "new Calvanist". What do they mean by that? If it means they are in agreement with some of the teachings of John Calvin that's likely OK (I have concerns with those beliefs too - but it's OK to have different beliefs than me, I don't have it all figured out either) . But why can't they just say they are follower's of Christ? Are there some teachings of Calvin that are different than the teachings of Christ? If they are the same, why the need for another label?

I don't understand Predestination

The way I see it, both Calvinists and non-Calvinists have points where they must admit they don't understand something. I am quick to admit I Don't Understand Predestination. I think this is safer than defending some of the conclusions further down their logic path.

I don't know if I've grown up allowing the Holy Spirit to teach me enough

Why so much emphasis in Christian circles on teaching each other all truths? Are we letting others replace the role of the Holy Spirit? Take a look at Hebrews 8:7-13 and some other passages.

I don't know if Jesus paid my debt

I can not find any passages in our Bible that describe a legal transaction in terms of Jesus paying a debt. I think there is a difference between paying a debt and paying a ransom. I also think the over-use of this language may help shape an unhealthy view of God. Same goes for the thinking in Penal Substitution.

I don't fully understand Christ message about poverty and wealth

Christ came preaching good news to the poor. But I don't fully understand what it was, and what my responsibilities are yet with this message.

I don't know if Christians should be religious

Did Jesus Come to Start a New Religion, or did He come to free us free us from religion and connect with us in new relational ways.

I don't know why the gospel of the kingdom isn't preached often

Jesus and His discipled frequently preached about the good news of the reign of God. What Gospel does you neighbor need to hear? I don't understand why we don't follow Jesus example on this. I've looked for the Gospel in the Gospels - and I'm not sure why it seems clear to me, but different for others. Are people not interested today in understanding the Secrets of the Kingdom?

I don't know a lot of other stuff.

I plan to post a few more under the what I don't understand label category. I'm humble about what I don't know - and proud of it. :)


... I've got a few other questions floating around in my head, but I shouldn't list them here until I do some further study. I'll be updating this page as I learn more (and likely understand less).

What I Believe

The more I study the less I know... and many of my blog posts here reveal how I am seeing shades of gray in many places where I once saw black or white.

But there are things clearly central to scripture that I choose to believe by faith.

So here is a summary of what I believe... I will likely update this post as my journey unfolds.


It is OK to have a simple faith

I want to have faith like a child. I don't believe it needs to be as complicated as some have made it to be. We don't need to read libraries full of volumes of complicated theological arguments. Many of these complicated theological discussions are good, but they are not required.

Allow God to Reign in His Kingdom

Jesus' spent a lot of time preaching about the Kingdom of God , or the Reign of God. We must repent, and allow God to reign in our lives. I want to be part of His work in His kingdom now and into eternity.

Unity is Essential

There are many issues that are causing divisions in Christ's Church. We must recognize that Unity of Christ's Church is an essential part of our faith. We must look at the large scriptural support of unity and compare that to the amount of scriptural support of an issue that is causing a division.

Love is Essential

What is more important, correct theology or love? I believe scripture is clear that love is essential to our faith.

We should love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul and mind.

Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. - Matt 22:37-38 (NIV)

We should love others unselfishly

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." - Matt 22:36-40 (NIV)

True Faith is accompanied by good actions.

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. - James 2:14-17 (NIV)

(I see irony in the faith vs works divide. Sola Fide is a related topic.)

God is Eternal

"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." (Psalm 90:2)

The Problem is Our Self Centered Ways

God created us in His own image to have an abundant life. He did not make us as robots to automatically love and obey Him. God gave us a will and a freedom of choice. We chose to disobey God and go our own willful way. We still make this choice today.

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." —Romans 3:23 (NIV)

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." —Romans 6:23 (NIV)

God wants us to have Peace and Life

God loves us and wants us to experience peace and life—abundant and eternal.
http://www.billygraham.org/SH_StepsToPeace.asp

"We have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." —Romans 5:1 (NIV)

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." —John 3:16 (NIV)

"I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly." —John 10:10 (NIV)

God's wants to restore relationship with us

Jesus Christ died on the Cross and rose from the grave. Jesus chose to be the sacrificial lamb that would take our sins to the cross. The wages of my sin is death, and Jesus has taken that upon himself so that I may live.

"The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! "(John 1:29 NIV)

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ." —1 Timothy 2:5 (NIV)

"For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God." —1 Peter 3:18 (NIV)

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." —Romans 5:8 (NIV)

Our Response: Receive Christ

We must trust Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and receive Him by personal invitation.
http://www.billygraham.org/SH_StepsToPeace.asp

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." —Revelation 3:20 (NIV)

"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." —John 1:12 (NIV)

"That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." —Romans 10:9 (NIV)

We must not forget to share this good news

The Parable of the Life-Saving Station is a good reminder.

He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. (Mark 16:15 NIV)

Parable of the Life-Saving Station

I heard this at the Franklin Graham Festival Christian Life and Witness classes a few years ago. I thought it was a good challenge. I googled and found this text at: http://www.bible.ca/evangelism/e-parable-life-saving.htm (and many other places). You may have read it before, but I thought I'd share it here too.

Parable of the Life-Saving Station

On a dangerous seacoast where shipwrecks often occur there was a once a crude little life-saving station. The building was just a hut, and there was only one boat, but the few devoted members kept a constant watch over the sea, and with no thought for themselves, they went out day or night tirelessly searching for the lost.

Many lives were saved by this wonderful little station, so that it became famous. Some of those who were saved, and various others in the surrounding areas, wanted to become associated with the station and give of their time and money and effort for the support of its work. New boats were bought and new crews were trained. The little life-saving station grew.

Some of the new members of the life-saving station were unhappy that the building was so crude and so poorly equipped. They felt that a more comfortable place should be provided as the first refuge of those saved from the sea.

So they replaced the emergency cots with beds and put better furniture in an enlarged building. Now the life-saving station became a popular gathering place for its members, and they re-decorated it beautifully and furnished it as a sort of club.

Less of the members were now interested in going to sea on life-saving missions, so they hired life boat crews to do this work.

The mission of life-saving was still given lip-service but most were too busy or lacked the necessary commitment to take part in the life-saving activities personally.

About this time a large ship was wrecked off the coast, and the hired crews brought in boat loads of cold, wet, and half-drowned people.

They were dirty and sick, and some of them had black skin, and some spoke a strange language, and the beautiful new club was considerably messed up. So the property committee immediately had a shower house built outside the club where victims of shipwreck could be cleaned up before coming inside.

At the next meeting, there was a split in the club membership. Most of the members wanted to stop the club's life-saving activities as being unpleasant and a hindrance to the normal life pattern of the club.

But some members insisted that life-saving was their primary purpose and pointed out that they were still called a life-saving station. But they were finally voted down and told that if they wanted to save the life of all the various kinds of people who were shipwrecked in those waters, they could begin their own life-saving station down the coast. They did.

As the years went by, the new station experienced the same changes that had occurred in the old. They evolved into a club and yet another life-saving station was founded.

If you visit the seacoast today you will find a number of exclusive clubs along that shore. Shipwrecks are still frequent in those waters, only now most of the people drown.

Faith Like a Child

Mama Luka Comes Home from CTA on Vimeo.

The story in this video is an example child-like faith surpassing that of a wiser adult.

"At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children".(Matt 11:25 NIV)

"But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." (Luke 18:16-17 NIV)
(Similar in Matt 19:14, and Mark 10:14-15)

I believe all Christ followers teach their children simple truths about how Jesus wants them to live, and how they can be followers of Christ... and our children understand it, and place their trust in Christ, and learn to obey Him. We have two young children, and it is awesome to watch them sing songs of Love to Jesus, speak openly about their faith, pray and trust Jesus with their problems.

I'm afraid that the older and wiser we get it becomes harder to have the faith of a child.

I thank God that the Kingdom of Heaven is simple enough to grasp for a child, and even myself.

I pray my faith always remain as simple as that as a child.

One Mind

What does being with "one mind" mean?

"When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers. At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said, "Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. "For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry." (Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out.
And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) "For it is written in the book of Psalms, 'LET HIS HOMESTEAD BE MADE DESOLATE, AND LET NO ONE DWELL IN IT'; and,'LET ANOTHER MAN TAKE HIS OFFICE.'"Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us-- beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us-- one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection." So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place." And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles." (Acts 1:13 - 26 NASB)

So from these verses we are to admire that the followers of Jesus were of 'one mind' and continually devoted to prayer. This should be our desire too.

From these verses do we think that being of one mind meant that they agreed on everything? Peter stood up and proposes that they pick one more person to become one of the 12 apostles. I think the fact that two names were put forward suggests that they did not agree on everything.

I do think they found a way to place their focus on the issues that are of greatest value (prayer, loving Jesus, loving people, and working together on the mission that Jesus calls us all to). And by focusing on these issues, and not getting distracted by their differences, they were of one mind.

Also consider Paul opposing Peter, yet we must consider the main message in their writings to be of 'one mind'.

Gal 2:11 "When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong."

A question. Does everyone in any 'church' agree on all doctrines? I know in most community of believers there are different thoughts on many issues. But when it comes to working together to reach others with the good news, the doctrinal discussions are not the focus.

When our minds are focused on living out our faith, loving God and others, and seeking the kingdom of God, we can be of 'one mind'.