tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post2543672425657784735..comments2023-05-20T06:30:03.560-05:00Comments on Jon's Journey: Playdough Scripture Rev 20:14-15Jonathanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01266729238990589293noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-27125856666019339952011-05-22T15:55:09.636-05:002011-05-22T15:55:09.636-05:00I'll try to explain better.
I can't think...I'll try to explain better.<br /><br />I can't think off hand of any modern day punishments that last forever. We like giving second chances. But consider a thief a while back in the middle east. If he was caught stealing his hand would get cut off. You could say the punishment lasted forever. They didn't keep cutting off his hand, but the results of the punishment would continue for the rest of his life.<br /><br />Heb. 6:2 mentions "eternal judgment"<br /><br />Does the judgment keep occurring over an over again for eternity? I think we read this as judgment occurs, and the result lasts for eternity. <br /><br />Heb. 9:12 mentions "eternal redemption"<br /><br />Does the redemption keep occurring over an over again for eternity? I think we read this as we are redeemed, an the result lasts for eternity. <br /><br />Jude 1:7 says "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."<br /><br />(Or eternal punishment of fire? I don't know?)<br />But we know they were punished once, and the results lasted forever.<br /><br />Does that help explain this point of view better?Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01266729238990589293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-46756381335846072011-05-22T13:44:39.265-05:002011-05-22T13:44:39.265-05:00I think spiritual death is how it all started and ...I think spiritual death is how it all started and physical death is simply a tangible picture of the reality of spiritual death... God said to Adam and Eve: “in the day you eat of the fruit, you will surely die” - they didn't (because of God's mercy I believe) die physically that day, but they most certainly died spiritually that day which was characterized by being separated from fellowship with God and banished out of the Garden (which also represents fellowship with God).<br /><br />Further, we need to be careful that we don't define physical death only by our western, north American cultural norms (ceasing to exist once for all), but allow the overriding principal of spiritual death (the hermanutical principle of "first mention") to define our understanding of physical dying (not allow our understanding of physical death to define our understanding of spiritual death – that would be backwards). There are references in the OT that would use the kind of language of separation to talk about physical death - e.g. “And as her soul was departing (for she was dying)…” Genesis 35:18<br /><br />I’m not sure I understand or rap my brain around what you mean by: “The length of the judgement is eternal (for both cases), but it doesn't necessarily require that the judged will live eternally.” How can “judgement/punishment” be eternal when the one being punished isn’t around? Wouldn’t punishment cease the moment the person who’s being punished ceases to exist?Steven Janzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04456758730452678211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-40179092549960428212011-05-22T07:40:54.008-05:002011-05-22T07:40:54.008-05:00Thanks Steve. I appreciate the explanation of you...Thanks Steve. I appreciate the explanation of your perspective. I find it interesting how on so many topics people can have sound and logical arguments for different perspectives.<br /><br />Although what you say is true, I don't know if that is or ever was the definition of death. Do we have any evidence that is what the writers of Scripture intended when they chose to use the word 'death' in each of these passages. Why didn't they write 'eternal separation from God' if that is what they meant? Interesting.<br /><br />Curious what are your thoughts on Jude 1:7?Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01266729238990589293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-5982555428195673272011-05-22T07:26:25.842-05:002011-05-22T07:26:25.842-05:00I think "death" means separation all the...I think "death" means separation all the time... physically included. When you die physically, that which makes up our physical life (breathing, heart beat, brain activity) is separated from (or departs from, ceases to exist in the presence of) the body, the flesh, bone, organs, etc.<br /><br />It's not a matter of redefining death for each passage in the Scriptures, it's just applying the natural understanding of death to the passages... so, when we cross over to the idea of spiritual death, the definition carry's over, in that our spirit is separated (or departed) from God - forever.Steven Janzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04456758730452678211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-31918294583584510332011-05-21T12:20:48.350-05:002011-05-21T12:20:48.350-05:00Just took another look at Jude 1:7. In the Greek ...Just took another look at Jude 1:7. In the Greek it is hard to say if the eternal goes with the fire or the punishment. It could be "fire of eternal punishment" or "punishment of eternal fire". Either way we know the fire and the people didn't last forever, but the punishment was eternal.Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01266729238990589293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-22290097877721029032011-05-21T12:13:49.840-05:002011-05-21T12:13:49.840-05:00Hi Steve,
Thanks for jumping in on this topic aga...Hi Steve,<br /><br />Thanks for jumping in on this topic again. :)<br /><br />"Dead in our trespasses and sin" could mean simply that we are as good as dead when we are living in sin. Do we need to redefine death in so many passages? How do we know which passages death means death, and which ones death means "living forever... but in a bad way".<br /><br />Yes, Matt 25:26 is one verse that seems to support eternal conscious torment the best. However considering all the other verse I'm willing to consider this interpretation:<br /><br />The length of the judgement is eternal (for both cases), but it doesn't necessarily require that the judged will live eternally.<br /><br />A second death would be an eternal consequence of death in this way of thinking. The punishment of death would last for eternity. <br /><br />Consider Jude 1:7 (NIV)<br /><br />"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."<br /><br />How do the people in Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire? The punishment lasted forever. But they did not.Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01266729238990589293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2203174451356862507.post-27217750046855318142011-05-21T09:41:26.888-05:002011-05-21T09:41:26.888-05:00It of course hinges on how you define "death&...It of course hinges on how you define "death", Jon. <br /><br />If death carries with it idea of "separation" (which it most certainly does: 'dead in our trespasses and sins" meaning that we're separated from relationship with God), then the "second death" means that we'll be separated from God throughout eternity.<br /><br />"Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” <br /><br />If "eternal punishment" means annihilation or extinguishment in this text that our Lord spoke of, then what in the world does "eternal life mean"?Steven Janzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04456758730452678211noreply@blogger.com